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I'm writing this thread because I came across a few posts, not necessarily on this forum, by guys who seem to think playing in octaves with the aplomb that Wes Montgomery did with octaves is "simple." Yes, I have seen posts implying that improvising in octaves like Wes is simple.
Well let me just ask you this, if you think it's so simple to improvise in octaves like Wes, if it's so simple, then why aren't there any other players you hear that can improvise in octaves with the aplomb and fluency of Wes? I'll tell you why, because playing in octaves the way Wes did is extremely HARD to do. It's actually one of THE most difficult/challenging things about Wes's playing. I've heard a lot of guys and lady's play jazz guitar, but I've never heard anyone improvise with octaves with the seemingly effortless aplomb, sophistication, fretboard mastery , and lyricism of Wes Montgomery, and the uncanny ability to do it over ANY chord changes, it's really amazing.
With possibly one caveat, George Benson can come close with his octaves plus a 4th or 5th thing, adding the extra interval, a 4th or 5th to the octave, as not to be a clone of Wes, to be original.
Now maybe you could use this internet and scour the planet and come up with some guy who can do it similarly, and then say, with a cheesy grin and Homer Simpson voice, LOL, "there's a guy who can do octaves like that," Then I'll say, great, you found one or two guys out of almost 8 billion people on this Earth, I think you just proved my point Homer." LOL .
Playing in octaves like Wes is extremely challenging on guitar and that is why, even in all these years later, you haven't heard any, or certainly not many, players who can do it with the aplomb, sophistication, apparent total freedom and control on ANY chord changes, and seemingly effortless fluency of Wes Montgomery.
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09-10-2024 11:26 AM
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First who says it was so simple? Anyhow I've seen the vast majority of pro jazz guitarist use octaves to some degree and around 10 or so, very fluently.
While I rank Wes #1, he was still a human being.
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Sure, I've heard a lot of jazz guitarists play in octaves but NONE of them, IMO, comes anywhere even remotely close to what Wes was doing with octaves. Sure you could probably get some of them to woodshed on a particular tune over and over until they come up with something close, but Wes was just improvising on ANYTHING and everything and just coming up with genius on the fly.
Originally Posted by jameslovestal
No time to waste arguing with dudes who don't get it. I stated my opinion and now I have many more IMPORTANT things to do today. Wea was a musical genius and head and shoulders above most other players in various ways. That is why he is held in such high esteem to this day. If you want to argue with that just because i said it then go ahead and waste your time. I have much better more productive things to handle today. Wes was a musical genius and pioneer of jazz guitar, those are basically a widely accepted facts.
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Octaves existed before Wes, but Wes definitely changed the way they were used forever.
Something I've found helpful (though I do not claim to be a master) is to use the same fingering for octaves whether the notes are one or two frets apart-- index and pinky.
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How about improvising with chords? Wes mentions Nelson in the interview below
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I also have more important things to do then discuss something with an arrogant, know it all, my way or the highway type. Originally Posted by AdroitMage
Have a good day!
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I wasn't aware that this was controversial?
Though interestingly, there are some folks that smoke the octaves (a handful of the best guitarists on the planet -- Benson, Remler, Sheryl Bailey does them really well, a few others probably) but I'm not sure I've ever really heard anyone who can emulate the sound of his single note lines. They're so effortless and flow so well that it's not obvious at first how unusual and idosyncratic they are. Benson is interesting because he can and does emulate the octaves but doesn't really even try to emulate the single note style. I'm sure part of that is that he is also a genius and has his own sound, but it also is just a more subtle thing.
I was listening to something the other day where someone said that saxophone players all go through a Coltrane phase only to find that Wayne is harder to emulate. Coltrane being so aesthetically different than other saxophonists makes it maybe easier to emulate him on a superficial level even if no one comes close on a technical/artistic level. Wayne on the other hand is kind of weird and it's not obvious why he sounds so singular. I wonder if there's a parallel with the way that some people are able to emulate those octaves but that you hear him play those huge sweeping single-note lines a la Misty and no immediately that it couldn't possibly be a stand-in.
But yeah ... there's no accounting for taste. I listen to Jim and Grant more than Wes, but I don't think you'll find a lot of people out there denying that Wes is the GOAT. Or at least not a lot of argument about it.
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I totally (and respectfully) agree. After following the Wes Montgomery Guitar Method for some time (a long time ago) I eventually found the "same fingering" method much easier for my purposes. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I watched him from a couple of feet away and marvelled at how he was able to switch fingerings but I chose my way.
DG
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Oh man, you got to see him live? Originally Posted by daveg
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As a kid the thing I took away from "Smokin' At The Half Note" is how Wes uses his full palette of sounds: Single notes with chord accompaniment, octaves with chord accompaniment, chords with octaves, chords with single notes . . . spaces . . . he ties it all together to bring the listener on a journey.
That's not easy!
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Ronnie Scott's 1965. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
DGLast edited by daveg; 09-10-2024 at 03:27 PM.
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I think most players would be surprised if they started to practice octaves for a few minutes every day. As soon as your hand locks the position, octaves become a lot easier, same way say power chords do for metal players.
What I find technically unbelievable about Wes is not only the octaves but also the chord soloing technique he had. If you listen to his melodic ideas, they don't get simplified at all when switching from single line to octaves and to chords. He had the technique to support his ideas either way, that's really something!
When I studied with Ritchie Hart he was great at octaves, he was actually better then what you hear at Wes records, just unbelievable. And then he'd get a pick and do the Benson thing ..
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P.s. I don't think Wes changed fingers for the octaves, he played all sets with first finger and pinky.
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Wowwwwwwwwww Originally Posted by daveg
Ronnie Scott's 1965.
DG
Incredible.
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Wes was a genius' genius, IMO.
He didn't just make great transcripts. He also got the best sound from his guitar, IMO, compared to everybody else.
I heard him live in the arena in Central Park. I remember octaves on Shadow Of Your Smile and I remember that he didn't comp behind the pianist, well, at least sometimes. He put the guitar on a stand and then walked behind the piano and kind of leaned over it during the piano solo.
Oddly enough, it isn't listed in the Wikipedia page for Schaefer Music Festival. Same arena, maybe different promoter?
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To me the top-post is just a strawman post done to generate controversy, when there isn't any. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I don't recall anyone saying doing octaves, even as clean and fluid, as Wes was "simple".
Wes is indeed the GOAT, but that doesn't mean there are not a handful of folks, per generation, that can get very close to what Wes was doing as it relates to octaves. But as pointed out, with Wes's entire bag-of-tricks: yea, few, if any have got to that place.Last edited by jameslovestal; 09-11-2024 at 10:54 AM.
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Improvising with chords may be more difficult from point of view of musical organization (as the chords are different for each note and octaves are always the same so you do not have to think about which chord fits here and there). Originally Posted by jazznylon
But technically playing chords could be even easier - because you have different grips and in my opinion it gives a bit more technical flexibility and smoothness just physically ... because you change fingers, your wrist, hand is in motion - it is much more natural thing to do then move around the same grip.
With octaves it is the same grip that you just move around, to achieve smoothness, agility and flow, you need to have you wrist much relaxed but at the same time with precision... (same thing on piano by the way). But also it is probably more about mastering one particular thing and when you are done with it, I think you can go around in octaves quite well
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Point taken. At least with chords sometimes one have the option to just use different fingers in same general location. Octaves gotta move around
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The relaxed feel and smoothness, agility and flow, is where Wes is the master. When I see videos of Wes playing, I just marvel at how relaxed he looks and that clearly shows in his playing, regardless of the tempo. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Richie Hart has forgotten more about Wes and Benson than most people know about anything. Originally Posted by Alter
When I studied with Ritchie Hart he was great at octaves, he was actually better then what you hear at Wes records, just unbelievable. And then he'd get a pick and do the Benson thing ...
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As with everything with Wes, although his techniques (with octaves, block chords, single note runs) are awesome, the most difficult thing about it is not the technique —- it’s his ideas. Magic ideas that run on forever and sound like no one else.
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The key thing about Wes for me, is his overall musicality. His playing transcends the guitar and takes me into the realm of pure music, regardless of instrument. Here's one of my all-time favorite Wes performances... just brilliant octave and chord melody work and the syncopation of the last chorus is just so great.
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I use fingers 1 and 3 for the octaves on the Low E to D strings an A to G strings;
fingers 1 and 4 for the D and B strings and G and E strings.
Since I have an 8 string guitar, I also use fingers 1 and 4 or 1 and 3 for the B and high A string.
And fingers 1 and 2 for the Low A to A string.
I also like to play what I call Octave “Block chord which are.4 notes, the lowest and highest being octaves and an added M3 and M6 between them.
It’s essentially a drop 3 6th chord inversion we all know (5361) but move the 5 to the next string so it becomes a 1361. I like that sound. You can even alternate the 1 and 5 by alternating it with the drop 3 chord.
I also like to simultaneously pluck the octaves which means they are 2 strings between them (e.g, G on high E string and G on the D string. Yes, Wes never did that and could not do it-because you can’t use the pick or thumb with more than 1 string between the 2 notes (i.e can’t dampen more than one stirng at a time).
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On this recording, Wes starts out with double octaves - both E strings. The musical genius of the start of this solo is all the more impressive when you realize it is essentially played on one string (with octave back-up). One of my all-time Wes favorite solos.
Last edited by AndyV; 09-14-2024 at 08:43 AM.
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Eight and a half minutes of pure genius from Wes and the underrated Harold Mabern. Probably the most recognisable arrangement of that tune anywhere!! Originally Posted by AndyV
On the subject of Double Octaves, Wes never used them on any of the available Videos (please correct me if I am wrong?). He did not use them during the whole night at Scott's when I saw him but he was using them in 1965 during the European tour as this Paris recording plainly shows. I cannot think of one recording on which he used them prior to 1965? According to Jimmy Stewart in the 1968 Book - The Wes Montgomery Jazz Guitar Method - he used fingers one and three of the left hand and the thumb and finger two of the right hand to achieve this sound. It is amazing to me that he could construct such beautiful and intricate Double Octave solos within the space of just over an Octave.
DG
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