-
Most of Joe Pass' Virtuoso album was either recorded without a guitar amp, because he wanted to play acoustically, the amp broke or the amp tracks were lost by the engineer, depending upon what version of history you believe.
Take into consideration that Joe Pass was playing a laminate guitar acoustically on most of the tracks.
For a sound experiment, I've been playing Joe Pass' Virtuoso album acoustic tracks thru an amp sim, it sounds interesting, but I've not found a good enough fender type amp sim, yet.
So, as an experiment: Please, play Joe Pass' Virtuoso album thru your amp sim and listen for yourself.
Let me know your results.
-
03-22-2025 03:46 PM
-
I don't have the technological means to do that so I can't try it, although it would be interesting. Most or perhaps all of the Virtuoso albums were recorded on the same day or two and released over time. Some of them have Joe playing amplified and some playing without the amp. There is, if I remember correctly, one amplified song on the first album, and I think one or two of the albums are all amplified.
Joe might've liked playing acoustically. There was one album that he did with John Pisano which ended up being an acoustic album on the spur of the moment, because Joe liked an acoustic archtop that John had brought. Even when amplified, Joe did not seem to like a dark, fat tone and tended to be bright and clear. To my ears, Jim Hall seems to have started the trend towards dark, soft tones; Charlie Christian,Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow, Johnny Smith, Sal Salvador, etc., all had pretty bright tones.
-
Well it’s hard to argue with success, as Joe’s albums are some of the most iconic solo guitar albums in ANY genre, including jazz.
But I don’t see why an engineer would want to record Joe playing a laminate guitar acoustically. I have a 175, and it’s OK for practice unplugged but no way would I record or perform with it that way.
If the idea was to be acoustic—well I’m sure Norman Granz could have found a nice acoustic carved top archtop lying around.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 03-23-2025 at 09:12 AM.
-
I have an old Boss multifx with an amp sim, option. Also my Bad Monkey has a mixer out which incorporates an amp sim. Is that the sort of thing you mean?
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Most of Joe Pass' Virtuoso album was either recorded without a guitar amp, because he wanted to play acoustically, the amp broke or the amp tracks were lost by the engineer, depending upon what version of history you believe.
Take into consideration that Joe Pass was playing a laminate guitar acoustically on most of the tracks.
For a sound experiment, I've been playing Joe Pass' Virtuoso album acoustic tracks thru an amp sim, it sounds interesting, but I've not found a good enough fender type amp sim, yet.
So, as an experiment: Please, play Joe Pass' Virtuoso album thru your amp sim and listen for yourself.
Let me know your results.
-
I've got a Lehle signal splitter which can also be used as a re-amping box (i.e. converts a line signal to a guitar-level signal), so I just tried playing the Virtuoso CD via my computer into my Focusrite interface, and from there out to the Lehle box, and from there out to my DV Little Jazz amp (using the guitar input).
It sounded a little more 'thick' and bassy, presumably because of the way the Little Jazz amp sounds. But it still sounded more like an acoustic guitar, i.e. not really that much different from the record. I think amp sims or re-amping are usually applied to a dry/direct electric guitar track, I'm not sure they can really transform an 'acoustic' sound to an electric one?
But maybe with a lot of detailed EQ etc. you might get a bit nearer.
-
The story goes that the tracks were supposed to be recorded direct to the board + guitar mic'd. I think Joe was going for the kind of sound he gets on "Blues for Fred." Anyhow, the story goes that the direct to board tracks got lost/damaged whatever. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
The track on "Virtuoso" that still has the electric is "Here's That Rainy Day"
-
Play the acoustic tracks through a speaker, place a guitar pickup in front of the speaker to pick up the magnetic field from the speaker. Then run the pickup into a guitar amp and record that with a microphone. Originally Posted by grahambop
I'm half joking! But it might be an interesting experiment. The sound of a magnetic pickup is much different than the acoustic sound. I was recently recording my carved archtop on two channels: the built in magnetic pickup thru a DI and a condenser mic about 8 inches from the body near where I pick. The two sounds complement eachother very well when mixed together afterward.
-
I'm using an Amp sim and EQ with a DAW, I don't think it sounds like an electric pickup, but it sounds different. Better or worse is obviously subjective.
An interesting experiment.
-
BTW this showed up on my FB feed—from Original Jazz Classics:
The new OJC pressing of Joe Pass’ 1973 album Virtuoso is OUT NOW! The acclaimed guitarist’s 10th album is widely considered his best, and features originals (“Blues for Alican”) alongside beloved standards (“’Round Midnight”).This new edition is pressed on 180-gram vinyl at RTI with lacquers cut from the original tapes (AAA) by Kevin Gray at Cohearent Audio and presented in Stoughton Tip-On Jacket.Get your copy at the link in bio!
You can preorder if you’re interested. At $39 not bad considering inflation. (Heck back in the 80s nice vinyl pressings were $20-30.)
-
I guess one could argue that a laminate guitar's acoustic sound could be more in line with the lowfi'ish output from a magnetic pickup than the sound of a all-solid-woods guitar. And the difference between the two will almost certainly be smaller on a properly made recording than IRL. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
-
Stimulated by your interesting curiosity I also tried with quite disappointing results (which may be due to my inexperience).
Here are three extracts of the first fiftheen seconds of Stella by starlight: the first original, the second with a simulation of Fender Bassman (TH3 in Cakewalk), the third with an undeclared simulation (Bluecat in Cakewalk).
-
Well done. Originally Posted by StefanoGhirardo
I like your second version using the Fender Bassman sim, it's an interesting experiment that creates a different sound, not a better sound, just a different sound.
-
A few years back several of us tried to re-create the tone Joe Pass might have been looking for, assuming "Here's That Rainy Day" is in the ball park. I sent my ES175 straight to "the board" and mic'd the guitar as well, then mixed the two signals. The result was actually pretty darn close to HTRD on the album. I think Graham did one as well. I also think the sound on Joe's Blues for Fred album is what he was ultimately after, and it is an incredibly nice sound to my ear.
-
IDK. I do play my 175 acoustically on occasion, but it doesn't sound "great", just OK for practicing. Rather plinky if you ask me. Very one-dimensional tone. Originally Posted by RJVB
OTOH there are tons of flattops and archtops that sound wonderful acoustically.
I'm willing to think it might be a "happy mistake", but I can't see why an engineer would consciously want to amplify something that doesn't sound that good in the first place (as the primary source), compared to other alternatives.
-
As legend has it, Joe was expecting there to be an amp at the session and their wasn’t (according to Bruce Forman at least.)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Might be misremembering that one. I’d go with Lawson
Tbf I’ve found myself in a similar situation a couple of times lol. Had to mike the box for a radio thing I did.i had an amp, we just couldn’t run it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I have played that album more than probably any in all my jazz history. While I can play parts of it like Joe and generally fake my way through the other stuff, it remains the best jazz guitar recording I ever heard. I suppose I could try that but don't have the recording equipment available. One thing to note is had Joe played the guitar acoustically and used a carved top like his D'aquisto or a even a Super 400 it would have come out different.
Joe said many years ago that he would practice and play acoustically but then go to the gig and play electrified and different things would come out. He said because the acoustic guitar makes you play different. This to me makes so much sense. I am primarily an acoustic player in practice but find that when going electric I play different. Now I am not comparing myself to the great Joe Pass but just that it does happen.
I just finished playing my Super400ces plugged in for about an hour. Then I picked up and played the acoustic L5. I was working on the tune THE SONG IS YOU. Sure, enough when I played it acoustic the vibe has different, and my playing just was different. Joe might have done a cooler album if it had been acoustic or maybe not as good. We will never know except it was great playing and great sounding.
-
I remember that, I recorded my 175 acoustically, played fingerstyle, to demonstrate that it sounded similar to the ‘acoustic’ sound of the Virtuoso record. (I think it was in a thread where someone doubted that this was possible). Originally Posted by lawson-stone
(Actually I wasn’t trying to emulate the sound on ‘Here’s that rainy day’, since that is the one track on the album that definitely sounds like it was recorded ‘electric’.)
Anyway here’s the recording I made, I just put my small Korg digital recorder a few inches from the guitar top and recorded with the onboard mics, then added a bit of reverb afterwards.
-
Incidentally some versions of the Virtuoso cover photo show some kind of strap wrapped around Joe’s guitar, over the pickup. (This is not visible in the CD copy I have, although it’s obviously from the same photo). Of course the photo may not be from the actual recording session, but if it is, it suggests some kind of attempt to dampen vibrations/rattles from the guitar, which is interesting.
-
Here's another acoustic recording of the Gibson 175 I did more recently, using a better mic (I was testing a Rode NT4 mic which I had just bought). This was played with a pick, which seemed to give a clearer/more projected sound than the fingerstyle recording. Anyway I was quite surprised how good this sounded, you could probably record a whole album like this and get away with it!
-
Very enjoyable, nice playing, this recording has a clearer tone than your previous post. The guitar has the no-sustain quality to the notes that I associate with a 175. Originally Posted by grahambop
Did Joe Pass use an acoustic carved archtop on any of his 'acoustic' recordings?
-
If he was recording with a microphone I can easily understand why he'd want to dampen the vibration of the pickup that plagues a lot of ES175 players Originally Posted by grahambop
Incidentally some versions of the Virtuoso cover photo show some kind of strap wrapped around Joe’s guitar, over the pickup. (This is not visible in the CD copy I have, although it’s obviously from the same photo). Of course the photo may not be from the actual recording session, but if it is, it suggests some kind of attempt to dampen vibrations/rattles from the guitar, which is interesting.
-
So much for the claim that an ES175 doesn't sound good acoustically. I love what you got from it there. Originally Posted by grahambop
-
Thanks, I think the trick is to close-mic it (only a few inches away in this case), which is probably contrary to the usual recommended way to record a ‘proper’ acoustic guitar. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
-
I found my fumbling effort to do a combination mic'd and direct to board clip, using "Here's That Rainy Day." I think one thing we were discussing was whether this would have produced the sound Joe got on that one song on Virtuoso. Nobody doubts the acoustic-only nature of the other tracks, but this tune was different with a clear electric element. So I decided I'd try it and see if somehow I could approximate the sound. I think I fell short considerably, but as a "proof of concept" I felt pretty good about it.
Reply With Quote
Wilde by Bill Lawrence Microcoils Telecaster...
Today, 09:23 AM in For Sale