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I ran across this video and I really enjoyed his playing style and just looking for some advice on how to get there. I'm pretty new to jazz guitar so what's the idea behind what he's doing. It doesn't sound too difficult but just need some direction.
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10-19-2010 11:41 AM
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RR,
Good find! Here's a link to some info:
The Jazz Guitar Blog: May 2009
You'll note that he is well grounded in classic jazz. People who play modern stuff this well, without sounding forced or contrived, usually have pretty deep roots.
Regards,
monk
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So what would you recommend that I start working on? I know a lot of that has to do with what I know and can already do so I'll give you my thoughts of where I'm at. I've been playing gutiar for 10 years or so but only really learning the instrument for the last year and half. I haven't learned a lot of licks and mostly just improv my leads. I've got some theory under my belt and know how to use things like chord structure, major and minor scales and keys, CAGED, harmonic minor, modes, chord tones, major/minor/diminished arps, parallel minors, some inversions and I'm learning about tritone substitutions right now. I've tried learning some standards but it's seems like such a chore to learn songs that I don't think I'll ever play and to learn them that far inside and out. Is there a way around learning jazz without having to learn standards? Mostly when I play lead anymore I try to just hit chord tones and use extensions. I know I need to work more on passing tones but what else would you suggest.
Thanks
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RR,
Originally Posted by Random Robot
You don't build a house by constructing the roof first. Every new thing in jazz arises from the things that came before. There are no shortcuts. It has been said before in numerous other posts that jazz is a language. That language is contained in the recorded solos of the jazz greats. The majority of recorded jazz consists of standards. Do the math.
If what you're doing is a chore, it's a good bet you're doing the wrong thing. You must love the music with a deep, abiding passion. If you do, learning will be a joy not a chore. Learning to play jazz is not for the faint of heart.
What would you think if you heard someone say "I want to become a nuclear physicist but I don't want to learn all that math and chemistry"?
Playing music is playing songs. In your post, you speak mainly of learning technique and acquiring theoretical information. That's information not music. Songs are music.
If any aspect of learning to play jazz (or any style of music) is a chore, you need to spend some serious time in soul searching, self contemplation asking yourself why you want to play jazz. If the resulting answer is not "Because I love it", then you are not doing the right thing.
No matter how much theory you learn or how great your technique is, if you don't love the music, your playing will never have that elusive quality we call "feeling".
If you haven't watched any videos of Wes Montgomery, do so. Look at him smile while he plays. There's no doubt that he loves what he's doing and he projects that love and joy in his playing.
Regards,
monk
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Sorry to offend but there is a lot of jazz that I don't enjoy, mostly standards or anything that sounds like elevator music. I don't really like listening to it so it makes it harder to want to learn it. On the other hand there is a lot of jazz I do enjoy and that's the part I'd like to focus on. I recently came across Scofield on youtube from Blue Note. Up until seeing that I wasn't really a Scofield fan, I had heard some stuff from A Go Go and for the most part it just sounded like endless wondering with out ever outlining a real groove or melody. That's what I enjoyed about the Lorenzo video, plenty of groove going on there and a repeating melody line that I have been humming ever since. If I have to learn standards that's fine and you're right I'm sure a lot of what they do comes from what they've learned from studing standards. I'm just not sold that that is the only way to get where I want to be as a player.
Take the kid who started playing guitar at 8 years old and thinks Stevie Ray hung the moon. By age 12 he can play every lick his idol ever had come blaring thru his amp. Ask that kid to show you his best Robert Johnson or Leadbelly lick and he'll probably have no idea what you're talking about. Why can't I learn what these guys are doing without having to find out where their roots come from. I mean if we really wanted to we could go all the way back to cavemen beating on rock with a stick to get our rhythm going but why not just take the best of what the great players of today have already figured out for us. So maybe I won't become a nuclear physicist but I might be able to fly the plane that drops the nuclear bomb
if that makes any sense.
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RR,
No offense taken. You asked for suggestions, I gave mine.
Regards,
monk
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Hmm. Depends on whether that kid wants to play blues or just be a SRV impersonator. I'm neither black not American but when I began to appreciate blues, it didn't take much for me to realise that I needed to try to understand the music (and to gain an historical perspective on it) to stand a hope in hell of playing anything more than a shallow copy; other than that there's no connection to the music that you're trying to play. As far as jazz goes, I don't like or listen to much Dixieland, but I'm sufficiently aware of it to understand that it forms a part of the music that I like to play. Doesn't mean I'll be buying a banjo anytime soon. Originally Posted by Random Robot
Sorry to offend but there is a lot of jazz that I don't enjoy, mostly standards or anything that sounds like elevator music. I don't really like listening to it so it makes it harder to want to learn it. On the other hand there is a lot of jazz I do enjoy and that's the part I'd like to focus on. I recently came across Scofield on youtube from Blue Note. Up until seeing that I wasn't really a Scofield fan, I had heard some stuff from A Go Go and for the most part it just sounded like endless wondering with out ever outlining a real groove or melody. That's what I enjoyed about the Lorenzo video, plenty of groove going on there and a repeating melody line that I have been humming ever since. If I have to learn standards that's fine and you're right I'm sure a lot of what they do comes from what they've learned from studing standards. I'm just not sold that that is the only way to get where I want to be as a player.
Take the kid who started playing guitar at 8 years old and thinks Stevie Ray hung the moon. By age 12 he can play every lick his idol ever had come blaring thru his amp. Ask that kid to show you his best Robert Johnson or Leadbelly lick and he'll probably have no idea what you're talking about. Why can't I learn what these guys are doing without having to find out where their roots come from. I mean if we really wanted to we could go all the way back to cavemen beating on rock with a stick to get our rhythm going but why not just take the best of what the great players of today have already figured out for us. So maybe I won't become a nuclear physicist but I might be able to fly the plane that drops the nuclear bomb if that makes any sense.
And if you don't know where you're coming from, how can you understand where you're going?? SRV didn't suddenly spring into existence from nowhere as a fully-fledged guitarslinger, he knew and respected the history and the forms of the music that he was playing, for certain. The answer is that you can learn your ido's music without knowing the roots; however, I think that your music will be all the better for gaining some kind of knowledge and understanding of those roots.
My 2p's worth.
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Monk, thanks man! You have so eloquently summed that up!
Random . . . Listen to Monk!!!
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So you're telling me that when you started practicing scales and doing finger exercises you were grinning ear to ear the whole time. I saw a video somewhere of a guy (may have been Bruno) explaining that theory and technique we're similar to a football player lifting weights and watching game film. He doesn't play football to lift weights he lifts weights to play football. If I need to learn standards I don't like, I can't see how that's any different and that I should be shunned by the entire guitar world. My point about the SRV kid is how far back do you really need to go for influences. I'd love to listen to monk if he was actually making a point as how to improve my skills to gt where I want to be rather than telling don't try to learn it and take up quilting instead.
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Originally Posted by Random Robot
So, where do you want to be? What is your goal?
Most of the problem with the kid's that cop only SRV licks is that they don't go back far enough to see the idiom. Blues. They only know tunes that were covered by Stevie. How many albums did he make? What do you do after you've learned every song on those CD's?
History has shown that whatever was old becomes 'new' again. Just ask Eric Clapton. He released a blues album in 1989 that had songs on it going back to, what? The twenties? or was it even the teens. Most of the tunes are from the 50's and 60's though, if I recall correctly. He pulled these tunes from the rich history of music that is the blues. (And it was a huge success)
Same with Jazz. You like Greg Howe? He covered Giant Steps. That's a standard for you. John McLaughlin? He covered Davis, Trane and Evans. Same with Mike Stearn, Scoffield, etc. Even the 'new' guys like Rosenwinkle. Standards and then some. Any guy that is worth his salt studied standards plus music in general going all the way back to JS Bach. Look at Al Dimeola. He also studied the Tangos of Astor Piazziola.
But again , it all comes down to what YOU want out of music or the guitar. However I agree with Monk. You got to learn TUNES no matter what genre.
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Good evening, Random Robot... Originally Posted by Random Robot
Now, now; I think that there's perhaps a tad of exaggeration here, don't you? You asked for advice, you got advice; good or bad is for you to decide. No-one (here, at least...) will make you do what you don't want to do, and your opinions and methods are entirely up to you, it's your call. We're not replying to your thread to annoy you; quite the opposite. Perhaps a case for 'chilling out' (a nice cup of tea will do us all some good...)?
Looking through other threads here, you'll get used to the tone of things. I hope others chime in to give you some replies to your question, but you'll have to do your share of encouraging...
Hope this helps, no offence intended...
Meanwhile...
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Random . . I know where you're coming from, but I'll try and clarify. I only recently got into jazz. I bought Wes Montogomery's 'Smokin at the Half Note' and I was blown away! So I enquired about him and found that HIS inspiration was Charlie Christian. So now I'm listening to players from that period: Freddie Green; Tiny Grimes, et al. In blues/rock, I like Gary Moore, and he's taken me to back over to Peter Green. My point is: I'm REALLY EXCITED!! Excited about the music and strongly influenced by the particular artist, AND, in turn further influenced by THEIR influences!! You see, theory is not my motivation or passion for jazz; it's the music!!
I hope that helps dude! Peace!
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I disagree with the line of thinking that if you don't love to woodshed something then you have no business trying to learn it. I'm trying to learn the things that I like about jazz and just wondering if there is a way to do that without learning the things I don't like about jazz. If my intent was to be a world class jazz guitar player I would see your point, it's not. My goal is to take the things I like and incorporate them into my own style of playing. Now if you're advice is I need to learn the standards, learn to comp them and learn to play the chord melodies and such in order to achive my goal I understand that and that would be good advice. The "advice" I got, the way I interpret it, is that since I don't love every part of jazz then I have no business trying to learn any of it. That IMO is bad advice. In the examples I've stated with Scofield at Blue Note and the Frizerra video I posted I don't hear a lot of chord melodies and comp'ing, maybe there is and I just don't hear it yet. So if they're not doing it, in these examples, is it necessary for me to learn it? Thanks Originally Posted by monk
Last edited by Random Robot; 10-21-2010 at 03:27 PM.
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@Randomrobot
Scofield most definately knows how to comp. And he comps every time someone hires him to play on THEIR record. He comps on albums by Miles Davis, Charles Mingus and Larry Coryell just to name a few. He doesn't usually comp on his albums except where the keyboard or bass might have a solo.
He has several chord melodies but they are not in the style of say Joe Pass. He tends to grab 2-3 notes. He's not known as a solo player like Pass or Bruno or Howard Alden. Listen to "Gil B643" off of Still Warm . His whole solo is chords.
What is it about the standards that is putting you off? The chords?
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Oh dear lord, is there a way to stay logged in for more than a couple of minutes? Everytime I try to post something I'm logged out before I can get finished
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Anyways,
Oh, I'm sure these guys know how to comp and everything else. I've notice that Sco, in some of the videos I've seen, does play a lot of chords in his leads so that's something that I need to work on for sure but why do I have to do that using standards?
Mostly the thing I don't like about the standards I've heard is they are "remakes" of songs that I wouldn't listen to. Therefore they just don't move me emotionally. It'd be like a country version of a Lady Gaga song on bag pipes. I do find comping doesn't seem impossible to me but playing chord melodies are fairly frustrating when you don't know the melody in the 1st place and it's not a song that really catches your ear.Last edited by Random Robot; 10-21-2010 at 03:58 PM.
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Like this video of my instructor, I can appreciate what he's doing but there is nothing in me that makes me want to be able to play this from a musical standpoint. It'd be more of a look what I can do.
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Might I ask what do you listen too Jazz wise?
If you don't want to 'remake' a song then what are you going to do? play it exactly like it is on the record, like you would a rock tune?
Part of the draw of doing standards is that you take it and re-do it the way you want to. You arrange it as you hear it.
That may be taking a song like 'Norweigen Wood" and changing the time signature to 5/8. Or even a tune like "Clouds" by Joanie Mitchell and reharmonizing it. (listen to Pat Martino's Conciousnes CD for this one. It don't sound like Joanie's version)
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The few things that I've found that I like listening to are most of what I've posted in this thread. I've got some Montgomery and Coletrane stuff that I listen to every once in a while but I'm pretty picky when it comes to the music that I really like, not just jazz. I'm enjoying most of the Lorezno Frizerra CD I just downloaded the other day and I've watched a lot of Scofield's stuff from Blue Note. I can even get into a little bit of his stuff with MMW but it wears on me after a bit. I don't know where this fits but I consider Weckl's music to be pretty good even though it's not guitar oriented. As far as how I would play the songs, I for the most part wouldn't. I've been playing for a long time now and I don't know maybe a dozen covers. Maybe this isn't a concept that jazz players use but I'm really into original music, no matter the genre. If it sounds fresh and exciting I'm for it. How do you describe fresh and exciting? I think that's personal. If I hear a song that moves me then I'm probably going to play around with it a little bit but not actually learn it. I'll take their ideas, put that with the ideas I get from it and create something new. I think that's what Lorenzo did with the tune I posted. Sounds like to me that it's just a really good idea inspired by "My Favorite Things". If it was just a version of "My Favorite Things" I don't think I enjoy it nearly as much.
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Who else have you listened to? What about Ben Monder, Bill Frissel?
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Nope. But I will. I'm all for finding guys who play this style and learning what I can from them. That's what I'm saying. I've learned a lot just from the little bit that I've heard, like using the 9s and 13s in my leads, I'd never really used those colors before and now I'm starting to be able to make them work. Trying to play some more dorain stuff over minors and lydian of #11 chords but mainly just playing chord tones and using scales to do runs. So I'll check out those guys and anyone else you can come up with that play what I'm calling modern jazz.
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