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07-28-2015, 10:44 AM #1501destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by MarkRhodes
I think he 'digs in' to the first and third beats - there's never any doubt where 'one' is.
Regarding those arpeggios, I hear the first of each group as being prominent: even eights 1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4 or triplets 1 2-3-4, 2 2-3-4.
And I think he chooses fingering on the basis of his articulation of eighth notes.
I've been noodling on the guitar while writing this, and I was reminded of a something you recently asked (rhetorically, and in a context that made perfect sense): "Why anyone would want to play a major third on one string?"
Well, I've just noticed that doing a smooth downward 'string-sweep' to articulate the notes of the ascending triplet E-G-B in a CMaj7 arpeggio does call for a major third if you start from C on the sixth string (a good 'launching point'), but not if you alternate pick and change strings when going from the C to the E.
I wish I could play a dazzling demonstration of that, but that's kind of the point - speed is a function of efficient coordination and practice.
Even so, I'd like to see more videos here. I'm happy to have a go at demonstrating what I've tried to express.Last edited by destinytot; 07-28-2015 at 10:51 AM.
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07-28-2015 10:44 AM
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07-28-2015, 10:48 AM #1502destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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Originally Posted by destinytot
I appreciate what Mark Cally has done with the blues scale shapes. Reminds me of diminished runs, which lay out so nicely on the guitar. Lots of shifts but the fingering stays the same (-or close to it), so you can really zip around without much effort.
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Loving these patterns !! and the fingerings these are so cool !
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You know, that E blues pattern (E, G, A, Bb, B, D) is very close to an E diminished arpeggio (E G Bb D).
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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I can't play at all with the guitar so low. I've tried many times but it just feels like my picking hand has been submerged in cement.
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08-02-2015, 07:39 AM #1510destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by AlainJazz
It's not that I've been lazy or unmotivated, it's about using practice time wisely. It's been said before - focus on the minutiae.
My confidence had been undermined by fears that my 18" archtop may not be suitable for Benson picking - until I saw Benson himself using one.
And, of course, I'd watched that - and other - videos several times without thinking making a connection between picking and the size of guitar's body. I've spent part of this morning watching how Ed Cherry's technique has evolved. I see a difference marked by a Benson-like grip from 1988 - I love his guitar playing today.
Having tried it on two gigs, there were positive aspects to experience of having the guitar hang low, aspects which I hope to maintain. For example, standing, I sang and played lines with a greater feeling of freedom in my upper torso and the guitar anchored on my hip. Sitting, the back was completely free and the body inclined towards me*; the tone was/is wonderful and I could pick and choose shapes to play off while looking at the neck.
But last night I realised that I'd overshot the mark.
After the place had cleared, I raised the strap a bit and felt better (I wouldn't have been able to sleep otherwise), but I'm going to look even more closely at this issue.
inclined towards me* I thought it might have been the chair, but I've just realised that when I tried it at home I only inclined it a little (kind of like Wes, which is a feeling I want to keep). But I'd been watching acoustic archtop master Steve Jordan closely - I think I was trying to Benson-pick in this position.
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Thanks for your insight destiny. Very interesting. It's funny how such little things can make such a big difference in how you feel while playing.
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Originally Posted by Mark78_blues
i recommend practicing the normal tempo form of the technique for a long time before complicating things by trying to master the fast tempo form. you have to get used to the feel of this predominantly downstroke rest stroke style (very visible on the newport clip btw) - before you're ready to modify it so as to make it work for fast tempos.
the fast form substitutes arm movement for wrist movement - this makes all the difference when it comes to speed - and it does not involve any rules about downstrokes rest strokes for string changes (though you may well find yourself doing more downs than ups...).
the practice i find effective involves using scales with added notes to keep them 'in time' - and then alternating single and double time passages so as to practice the transition from wrist-based (downstroke/rest stroke) to arm-based (free stroke) picking. i also like to practice passages which require sharp transitions back and forth between single note lines and strummed chords. a leading feature of all these technique forms (normal tempo/fast tempo and strummed chords) is that they all work best initially at least with quite a strong pinky-anchor. the temptation to lift the hand for chords should be resisted i think (at least to start with).
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Thanks for your clarification! So, in the arm based picking do you find yourself to move the forearm in the same direction of the string? (Toward the neck in the downstroke and toward the bridge in the upstroke) Or you just rotate the forearm up and down, like in the standard style?
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08-04-2015, 06:57 AM #1514destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by Mark78_blues
EDIT Speculating, I think of rotation as harnessing the power of torque, and up-and-down as involving a 'hinge' - and if the latter is not the wrist, it would be the elbow (which sounds like a bad idea).
EDIT2 Elbow does makes sense - time to look into 'tracking'.Last edited by destinytot; 08-05-2015 at 04:52 PM. Reason: addition
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Originally Posted by Mark78_blues
the movements are so many, small and various that its hard to talk about them without generating confusions...
i think:
the wrist-based movement is a kind of rotation
the elbow-based movement is not a kind of rotation but a very quick, quite rigid, up-down (very small movements engaging the string only with the very tip of the pick)
the down-stroke-rest-stroke (which is the backbone of the technique) feels like its going IN towards the body of the guitar and the up-stroke-free-stroke feels like its going out away from the body of the guitar
and the arm based fast movement doesn't seem to me to move in the way you specify, but if anything, the opposite (but that could be just verbal confusion between us)
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the point of stressing the difference between the wrist based and the arm based dimensions of this technique is that its easy to practice at bright-ish tempos the whole time and fall between the two of them - with very negative effects.
try playing the wrist based passages nice and easy (i like to swing the 8ths heavily) - and set yourself to play short little arm based passages at very very high speed.
and the stuff about buzzing and humming and oscillating has heuristic value only - it may help trip you into the technique, but it doesn't really describe the technique when its up and running very well. (when you start to get it, it feels slower and more relaxed than these words imply.)
people are negative about arm-based picking for very good reason (it sounds mechanical and stiff etc. etc.) - the benson thing gives it a place, but only a very tightly circumscribed place, in the full right hand picture.
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08-06-2015, 07:29 AM #1517destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by Groyniad
I find it much easier on a small-bodied guitar, but I've spent all morning 'training' myself on my 18" archtop. (Mind you, morning lasts until 2pm.)
and the stuff about buzzing and humming and oscillating has heuristic value only
A great complement, too, to the part on 'elbow' @3m30s in Troy Grady's Four Essential Motion Mechanics for Picking.
I'm beginning to recognise this (very fine) motion of Benson's arm when it occurs.
Regarding imagery, I find 'weightless' more helpful than 'anchoring', and 'floating' more so than 'raised'; playing becomes 'riding the breath'.
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Anyone have a vid of this arm motion thing? I'm not seeing it. I mean, his arm moves faster in faster passages to change strings, but I'm not seeing the fundamental movement change.
I've found that I can actually pick faster the less total motion I move. I tend to play from the base of the thumb more even than the wrist when I need speed.
I do see the arm motion explicitly in his weird octave displacement stuff, just not on the fast chromatic lines. Would love to see it demoed.
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Originally Posted by ecj
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I see a lot of arm motion here
Last edited by Mark78_blues; 08-06-2015 at 10:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by Mark78_blues
a "few" pages ago i talked about the importance of these two aspects of the right hand. From the wrist for slow medium things, and from the arm to play the fast blazing lines but no one except Groyniad seems to have understood it.
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08-06-2015, 11:30 AM #1522destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by nunocpinto
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I think the arm moves fast because the arm motion is what helps you change strings. It looks to me like his wrist/thumb is still being utilized just as much as when he was playing slow.
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Jeez I'm going to have to catch up on this thread. You guys brought up a lot of great stuff in my absence.
As I mentioned earlier, I have a friend that plays metal that seems to use the Benson approach to his picking. Down to using fender mediums. He's arguably one of the fastest and most fluid / technical pickers I know.
I gave him a Benson-style line to noodle with and here's him playing it with a clear shot of his picking hand as promised. Please excuse the shirtlessness....the practice spot we were in was hooooot.
When I gave him this lick and he was pretty much able to play it almost instantly..
So what do you guys think? Is his technique similar? It's really hard for me to tell exactly where the motion is coming from. It seems to come from slightly different places based on what he's pickingLast edited by Dioxic; 08-07-2015 at 10:02 AM.
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08-07-2015, 05:27 AM #1525destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by ecj
I rather suspect the whole arm - and even the back, shoulder and torso - generates torque, and that the wrist, thumb, forearm and elbow exert some kind of opposing, containing or balancing force.
The movement reminds me of the quivering locked hands of a pair of well-matched arm wrestlers - but without the strain, and with balletic elegance, poise and grace.
Polyrhythms
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