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I personally enjoy his playing, but I've always thought it was definitely is more on the prog rock/prog metal spectrum than on the jazz-fusion spectrum.
I love jazz players who play with a great deal of technique or "shred" but some of the things that make a jazz player in my opinion are jazz tone, jazz phrasing, jazz chops, and jazz emotion.
I'm not saying Guthrie lacks any of those things but to be quite frank, to my ears, he has a very metal tone, proggy phrasing, metal chops, and a prog or metal player's sense of emotion.
This is just my very general take on it and it should be noted that I as well saw him play with Steven Wilson's band and he was absolutely incredible from a technical standpoint and fit well with the compositions, but they are indeed a prog rock band, albeit a very great and technically skilled one in the same vein as King Crimson, Yes, Pink Floyd, Rush, and EL&P, and not a jazz or fusion band.
It should also be noted that if I recall correctly I've heard him play jazz, country and bluegrass, blues, and possibly other genres aside from metal and prog, but he always seems to take the metal shredder's approach to the tunes regardless of genre.
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06-19-2013 03:39 AM
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What does this mean to you? To me, it indicates that someone is playing predetermined licks very fast, With a lot of legato.
Originally Posted by UpstreamJazz
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To me, it's always been about the aggressiveness and heaviness of his playing, as exhibited on tunes of his such as "See You Next Tuesday" (with The Aristocrats), among others. Also worth noting is that to my ears at the very least, giving that same tune as an example, the abrasiveness and atonality come across to me personally as "metal". Originally Posted by NSJ
Anyways, while Guthrie's playing is incredibly fast, it is of course anything but predetermined as he is definitely more than capable of improvising over anything thrown at him, and plays in a staccato manner, but the aggressive tone and the immense number of notes he plays or is capable of playing always made me think "metal" first and foremost when I hear him play, even when he plays tunes of other genres.
That said, I actually wouldn't be opposed to labeling him as a fusion player at all, as he is a very open-minded and diverse guitarist who has definitely succeeded in fusing together various genres in music he has released. I would not, however, call him a jazz fusion player as I find him to be a progressive rocker/progressive metaller at heart, but this is just my opinion.
I really do love his work as I said and I do hope I'm not coming off as insulting in any way to him as an artist or to fans he has on the jazz scene.
EDIT:
Bear in mind I could be way off in my assessment of Guthrie. I'm a newbie here and I'm no expert as I'm more or less a beginner guitar player myself. I came here first and foremost as a fan/appreciator of guitar virtuosos who are easily classified as jazz or fusion players like George Benson, Larry Coryell, Wes Montgomery, and so on, and signed up on behalf of some musicians I know. I also came here to hopefully discover artists I'm unaware of and learn a bit as well. With that in mind, I do have a basic knowledge and appreciation of jazz guitar, but I'll admit I'm possibly not all that qualified to comment on a difficult topic like whether or not Guthrie plays jazz.Last edited by UpstreamJazz; 06-19-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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Guthrie isn't much of an improviser, if you hear his records, and then hear live versions, you'll notice that the "improv" sections are quite similar. Not exactly the same, but I see it like he memorizes a bunch of licks for certain parts of the tunes.
He's really awesome though. Has some really creative ideas and techniques going on. Kind of like a modern alternative for those who want to study guys like Holdsworth (except there's no substitute for Holdsworth
). Also, check out the record he put out under his own name, a lot more fusion and heading into the jazz side, as opposed to his work with aristocrats. He actually put out a book with the music for the whole record. Pretty fun stuff to play, not a lot of changes so it's more in the open jam kind of thing. You could definitely take it out further than what Guthrie does.
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^
For even more jazzy album with Guthrie you can have a listen at Guthrie Govan & The Fellowship, the album is The Fellowship - The Basement Club Band
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I am streaming some of the songs from this album as we speak. Originally Posted by TheKhann
The version of "Mercy Mercy Mercy" is incredible thus far, to my ears. He really modernized that classic standard with his approach during his solo in particular, while staying true to the spirit of the tune.
Do you know if this album is out of print of if one could purchase it anywhere?
I'd hate to even consider ripping off such a talented group of musicians if a CD is available for purchase.
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As far as i know, the album is sold out and there are no plans for a re-release. There are rumors of a new album on the way, but who knows.
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McLaughlin played with Miles before MO (in a silent way, bitches brew)..and the influence evolved..one of McLaughlin's many incarnations..the original MO was a great band...saw them at a small club in los angeles..wow..
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Nope, not jazz.
I heard him struggle playing some Chick Corea stuff. He can definitely play many styles extremely well, but not Jazz
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Me too except back than it was all the neo-classical shredders. I think this stuff is cooler. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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What about this line up?
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I dig Scott we were students at GIT at the same time and he was a amazing then. Dennis Chambers of one of my top three drummers. To me this is Fusion not Jazz or Rock. Even thought you look in Scott's car there are usually Led Zeppelin and Santana CD's laying in the seat. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
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Originally Posted by Richb
Yes, GGs music is nothing to write home to mom about.
And yes, WK is of course awesome
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I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that he is a guy who plays the guitar extremely well but that you don't like the style of music he plays, then I don't know why you would label it neurotic whitearse music(I'm not even sure I know what that actually means). What is it about the music he plays that you find to be terrible? Is that just your way of saying he's a great player but you don't like his style of music? If so, then fair enough. If there is something objectively terrible about the music that he plays, I am interested to learn. I'm always interested to hear people who are learned on the subject describe what exactly constitutes good and bad music on an objective basis. Originally Posted by Richb
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I like Asteroids! Especially old arcade games that go 'Diddly Yopp!' when you blow things up! Fnerr.
And what is strange and inadvertently comical the original clip I posted was a track called 'Bad Asteroid'.
I like to think that this thread has now come full circle and everything is equal, in a 'Ommm' kind of way.
Now, pass me the tofu and zafu, I feel enlightened.
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I enjoy Guthrie's playing, not always, but frequently. Some of the ideas he outlines in those 'Professor Shred' videos are ideas I've tried to convey to people before. He gets them across well.
Sometimes he plays far too many 16th notes, 32nd notes or sextuplets...whatever will sound like shred at that time (generally exceeding the equivalent of 16th notes at 200 BPMs). When he is playing slower (8th notes and such) he plays actual melodic lines and not sequences. I think he is pretty good at it.
At times I find he uses the blazing scale sequences as a good phrasing tool. Other times not so much. The battle of playing tastefully versus way too much shredding seems to go on in Guthrie quite often.
Haven't heard the recent Aristocrats record but on the first one he shows pretty good restraint. The fact that I actually hear him restraining is part of his problem. Guthrie is two steps over the 'shred' line (on the shred side). He is much closer to the line than most other shredders though. I would say this whole shred-fusion thing is, as mentioned, more prog rock than anything else. I wouldn't call it actual fusion. I'd put Tom Quayle down as someone who is a bit less shred than Guthrie, but still not quite fusion (at least in the sense of how most of us think of fusion).
Whatever people might say about his music, I think as a teacher and a player he is great for shredders. I'd much rather shredders embraced his playing and approach over some sort of neo-classical thing.
Also: He has a really diverse set of knowledge. It is cool.Last edited by Tony_C; 07-19-2013 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Added some words
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I find it funny how we have to neatly categorise music, its human nature I suppose. Anyone who plays with conviction and emotion is inspiring in my books, whether they be a jazz player or not
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Yah, as I was writing my post I thought I was getting a bit too exact with that stuff. It helps sometimes though. There is certainly a movement of shred guys that are being called fusion, but I don't really know if that is an accurate term for it.
And I concur :O!
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In the first video I liked the quote he makes at 4:20 of the "Inspector Gadget" theme, a resource employed by many jazz improvisors.
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For even more jazzy album with Guthrie you can have a listen at Guthrie Govan & The Fellowship, the album is The Fellowship - The Basement Club Band
A very fun recording of Govan's improvisational jazz talents for the unbelievers out there. Also if you happen to be a fan of King Crimson you must listen to Steven Wilson's latest album, The Raven.... (Theo Travis also plays some amazing clarinets, sax's). He's pretty good live too, especially from about 5 ft away, with The Aristocrats and you get the feeling that we haven't heard the best yet.
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Yeah, but Nick Beggs though........ Originally Posted by Norse
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I guess it's an impressive finger exercise, but my attention span plummets to zero the moment he starts.
I looked up the OED definition of music. "The art or science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds with a view to beauty or coherence of form and expression of emotion." Clearly I'm not a fan of shredding, but it's not obvious to me that technical virtuosity for its own sake passes. Equally so for a hyper-technical classical violinist as a hyper-technical guitar player.
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You guys all have to admit that there's something funny about a bunch of dudes on an internet forum dedicated to jazz guitar whining about a rock guitarist's playing because it's only marketable to other guitar players.
No one gives a shit about Jimmy Raney, either ;-)
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Touché. I might point out though that where I live, I can pick up two radio stations that play jazz, and none that play shredder stuff. Jazz does have a following beyond its own musicians. Originally Posted by ecj
It's even the case that, for all that metal shredders embrace the evil dude image, jazz fans can beat them there too. The talented Mr Ripley was a jazz fan.
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Haha! True enough. I think instrumental music of all stripes is pretty much in the same boat. Originally Posted by GaryCorby
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