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I have my assumptions, but I want to hear what you guys think. Many people that are not jazz lovers know who Miles Davis was, and who Coltrane was, but I know for a fact (from touring 250 shows a year all over the states) that outside of jazz schools people have no clue about the jazz musicians of our time. I know some people blame the media, or look down upon the people in the "fly over states" (most of the us!), but I don't believe that's the entire story. What do you think?
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09-15-2013 07:32 PM
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I believe at one time jazz was popular music, and after that, not popular, but still something peopple were aware of....
I would imagine many people today don't even realize jazz is still being made by living people.
remember...this is the generation that thinks "venti" means large.
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So basically, you guys are saying that young people are dumb and ignorant?
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Let me ask you this. Do you think that the jazz artist we have today are on par with the ones of the past?
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Well, I think the general point may be valid but I also do believe that Wynton Marsalis is a "household name". Maybe Diana Krall and George Benson too (though George much more for his pop than his jazz)... Hard to think of others, though...
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I was talking about the people that started their careers post 2000. it seems to me like the last people to achieve any sort of fame were people from the 90's
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No, I'm not limiting it to the young
Dumb maybe for some...ignorant for sure. People always take that word so negatively though...it just means "not knowing." Which yeah...most people don't know, or really care to know, much about jazz.
As for those starting careers post 2000, that's not really a long time to become a household name across america which by and large, does not listen to jazz. Remember, even in the 50's and 60's many folks' exposure to jazz was through Time magazine and it's consideration of jazz as a cultural phenomenon. We eere considered pretty "out there", till that whole rock and roll fad took off.
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The best ones are without a doubt. But how many people listen to jazz? Originally Posted by danihrabin
Jazz lost it's general popularity with the end of the big band swing era and the beginning of bebop.
Smooth jazz changes the landscape again. If you ask the average person to name a jazz artist they're liable to answer with Kenny G as quickly as Diana Krall. Nobody will mention Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter or Sonny Rollins.Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 09-15-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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Oh, jazz artists of today on par with those of the past....hard to say...one of the things that made many past greats so good is longevity and ability to innovate...I mean, Sonny's still playing and imho--sounds great.
from a technique and musicality standpoint today's greats could hold their own with any of the past greats.
why are they not more revered? They're our contemporaries...look, who really listens to jazz? People who play it...it's a heck of a lot easier to revere a dead guy than someone out there playing now...because deeo down, we all think..."shit...if I could practice 40 hours a week that guy would open for ME."
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Right, but remember bebop was still "fringe" and "cool." Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
Jazz is only cool now to those who like it...or those who like stuff other people don't like by choice.
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My family had a get together and I was showing the software iGigBook on my ipad. I asked, "Someone name a jazz tune"... so I could demonstrate a search for the lead sheet in my ipad. No one could name a jazz tune. There were eight nieces and nephews in the room from age 15 to 28.
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Jazz was not at it's peak (as far as popularity goes) in the big band era! Duke Ellington and Count Basie played clubs and dance halls (not to mention their musicians got payed about a dollar a day).
Miles Davis, Weather Report, and the Pat Metheny Group played stadiums and concert halls.
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Miles wrote some hits. So did Monk. So did Dave Brubek.
So did some others.
Not pop hits (well Take Five was) but memorable tunes that did what a good pop song does.
Captures people's imaginations.
Jobim and Bacharach proved that chordal and melodic complexity can be embraced by the uneducated masses.
Classical music lives on. Reasonably complex don't you think?
The listening public aren't stupid or musically ignorant. They have feelings that can be accessed.
They can be accessed by any style you care to mention .....including Jazz.
It's the musicians who are uneducated.
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Could not agree more!!! Originally Posted by Philco
very few people go out of there way too seek art or entertainment. In the swing era you had black musician on big band tours 360 days per year making 5 dollars a week and that was the life. they were out there providing high quality entertainment that challenged the audience and made them think (a little) and at the same time made the music that they love with their energy and passion for it that four generations later we are still talking about it now.
The way i see it, the problem is that players are spoiled and entitled and don't believe in themselves and in their art enough to take it on the road and play for people every night. Also, most people rant connected to anything universal in their aesthetic which makes their music inaccessible.
the thought of not being able to afford an i phone and a venti frappacinno is terrifying for most and they want financial security not a life in art!We need people that are huge personalities like miles davis and coltrane. Epic characters that are not afraid to take chances and go all over the world and play their souls out every night to whoever will listen!
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The jazz musicians that are getting pop culture fame are shedding their real book roots and playing pop culture music. Jazz is not pop culture music.
Robert Glasper is a good example of someone who left his young lion status behind and went Grammy winner by playing modern music that resonates with modern audiences.
Even though I dig what he was doing before he went pop, I do enjoy what he's doing now and certainly don't blame him for wanting to make more accessible music. I remember what it was like back when I was trying to make it as a musician and being a starving artist is highly overrated.
That said, I dig modern jazz and appreciate all the talented cats doing what they do for not a lot of dough. Sure sounds good to me!Last edited by Jazzpunk; 09-15-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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times change, tastes change, art changes.
the listening public is indeed ignorant of music, they have been for a long time. why shouldn't they be? the popular song effectively replaced instrumental music a long time ago. is easier to write and makes more money, much more.
on one hand, Bird and Diz put a big nail in jazz' coffin with bebop, on the other hand they raised its virtuosity. even Wes' wife told him to stop playing jazz and go for the pop stuff before the family starved - and that was the mid-60s'.
I remember well the mid 70's jazz resurgence with Benson, Chuck Mangione, Grover Washington, et al, and I remember jazz influenced R&B and rock groups like Earth Wind and Fire, and Steely Dan. good times.
then I watched disco become popular. (I worked in and managed discos.
) then there was the brief fling with urban cowboy crappola. it all became what you could dance to and the music became more and more vacuous.
what do you think rock, disco, rap and hip-hop did to jazz? what do you think they have done to the musical sophistication and tastes of Gen X and GenY?
not to worry though, Kanye, Beyoncé and Katy Perry will save music.
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on another line of thought, yes classical still lives on.
sort of. attendance numbers are down and so are revenues for symphonies. the economy doesn't help, those shows are expensive.
but why does it endure? for my money there are several reasons but the number one reason is that the music is simply great, and people know it. the composers were rare masters.
but are people clamoring to hear 20th and 21rst century "classical" music? that's a tougher sell. modern sounds are typically a bit more.... bitter to stomach.
so what about classic jazz? can you make a good or great living playing it? maybe a few can, but most can't. so for jazzers that means play new stuff. but what new stuff? their own new stuff! but how many great new jazz composers are there? you know, the kind that can write music that makes people from all walks of life sit up and take notice and say "wow, who/what is that?"
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At least one! MARBIN!!! Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Omg.
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While that may seem logical, it shows a lack of awareness of actual jazz history. At it's peak, big band jazz was the most popular form of pop music, supported in large by a national teen audience and buying public. It dominated radio and record sales. Miles, Weather Report, and such, never came even close to that type of mainstream popularity. Originally Posted by danihrabin
When the AFM went on a recording strike and then we entered WWII, all the work ended for big band jazz musicians, so they invented bebop, and played in small combos to amuse and challenge themselves as much as anything. That was the death of popular jazz.
Billboard Top 10 National Best Selling Retail Records Chart 1942-
Glenn Miller - Chattanooga Choo Choo
Glenn Miller - A String Of Pearls
Woody Herman - Blues in the Night
Glenn Miller - A String Of Pearls
Glenn Miller - Moonlight Cocktail
Jimmy Dorsey - Tangerine
Harry James - Sleepy Lagoon
Kay Kyser - Jingle, Jangle, Jingle
Glenn Miller - (I've Got A Gal In) Kalamazoo
Bing Crosby - White Christmas
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Not so sure this is accurate. Originally Posted by danihrabin
If I ask every non musician that I know who Miles Davis is and what he wrote, I get blank stares. None of them ever heard of Weather Report and some have heard Metheny. Yes they played concerts halls, but you have to consider that we live in a world of musicians and aficionados. Go to a sporting event and see how many people in that stadium know who Weather Report is.
As Cosmic Gumbo said, my parents grew up in the big band era and EVERYBODY knew Ellington, Basie, Harry James, Glen Miller, Nat Cole and so on. Their music was the soundtrack of that era, particularly around WWII
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LOL!! I totally bet on 18! Originally Posted by jbyork
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While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I have to say that when I played some of the cuts you sent me, my wife, my daughter in law and two of her friends said, "Can you please turn that noise off or put earphones on". Originally Posted by danihrabin
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I think it's because of THE BIG PICTURE maaannnn!!!! - Mainstream America is now culturally (and maybe soon to be economically) bankrupt. So you've got all these super smart and talented people (in all the artforms) fighting the good fight for art on the fringes -but without a healthy society, you won't get a whole generation of genius musicians like there was back in the golden age of jazz. Countries and Empires fade into obscurity over time - tis' the way of things. Originally Posted by danihrabin
(oh, and just to clarify - I'm talking about long term historical cycles - not some right or left wing bs depending on your political or ideological affiliations). Not out to offend any patriotic folk with my post - just calling it as I see it in relation to music, art and culture.Last edited by 3625; 09-16-2013 at 02:30 AM.
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And then there are other things competing for the listeners imagination.
We have to compete with Ecstasy, MDMA, GHB and club music.
When you see a line of people going around the block to get into a club and it's still there at 6.00 the next morning then it could be possible that the club goers are having a good time. A better time than just listening to music can supply.
The world has changed. The "work and reward" system has changed. You don't have to work at anything to feel the best you are ever going to feel in your life. Just take a tablet and dance all night. Then go back next week and do it again.
No need to strive or better yourself. Just take the tablet. You will feel great.
That's a very big shift in the way the western world works. That's messing with a lot of people's heads.....literally.
Demotivation =
Chew on that Betel nut, take some GHB or smoke some dope. You are going to reach your full potential.....as a Zombie.
I know drugs have been around forever. But now everyone has them......including mums and dads and kids in schools.
A different kind of dumbing down.
The Western World in decay.
The creeping decadence.
Or I'm just an old fart.
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Hey Brian, Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
This is what you do: play these songs for all the girls and observe what happens
Cafe du Nuit | MoonJune Records
Last Chapter Of Dreaming | MoonJune Records
Breaking The Cycle | MoonJune Records
Down Goes The Day | MoonJune Records
godspeed!
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