Wes Montgomery on learning/playing guitar

[goldenwave77]

Was rereading an interview with Wes M. and was struck by his following statement, which I think applies to experienced/advanced players, as well as more "junior" players:

"[T]he guitar is just a hard instrument. A cat will listen to a guy that is playing and think he can do that, but he won't study on how long that cat's been playing. Then he gets discouraged because he can't even get two notes out. Then he says he'll struggle with it himself, and maybe he'll find out in six months that he still can't make a line, then he feels like he's a dumb cat. But when you find guitar players that are playing, you'll find out that at one time they never cared if they never played, they were going to keep on until they did. After a period of time the beginning player will hear a little difference in his playing, and that little inspiration is enough to go further, and the first thing you know you won't back out. The biggest problem is getting started. Then later every time you hear guitar players everybody plays more than you. And those things are not very inspirational, they're pretty discomforting. And then somebody says, "Why don't you put that thing down, you're not doing anything with it." Well, that's no help. And you'll find more people against you than for you, until you get started. Then you'll find more with you against you." (Secrets From the Masters, 1992)


/s/ Dumb Cat, aka goldenwave77


(Note to admin.---I put this in "Getting Started" forum, but maybe it should go elsewhere.)

[docbop]

Could that be applied to any instrument someone is learning Jazz on?

[goldenwave77]

Could that be applied to any instrument someone is learning Jazz on?

Perhaps, but to a smaller degree. A sax player blows into the horn, activates his fingers and he just played a 6 or 8 note run...the pianist can get 8 (maybe 10, I don't know, I've never played piano) notes at once, and his "fretting" motions actually play the notes--no need to pick the string to get it moving. The fiddle player, a la Grappelli, draws the bow and there you have 6 or 8 notes.

Maybe aspiring jazz guitarists ought to be emulating Gerry Mulligan (Bari sax) or J.J. Johnson (trombone) instead of faster than all get out sax players like Bird or Johnny Griffin, or trumpet players (Diz; F. Hubbard, or Clifford Brown)?!

[MarkRhodes]

Could that be applied to any instrument someone is learning Jazz on?

All require effort to learn, and much great effort to master, but I think Wes's point was that the guitar is a particularly hard instrument to play jazz on. I think he's right!

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think he's right too. :-)

I love this from Wes. I think it gives a lot of insight into the way his playing approach probably developed. I know there's a lot of benefit to learning to play horn-type lines etc. , but at some point it's beneficial to play to the strengths of the instrument you're playing. I think Wes could play just about anything he wanted to, but he seemed to major in phrasing devices which were distinctive to the guitar itself. He never sounds like a guitarist "just trying to keep up".

[snoskier63]

All require effort to learn, and much great effort to master, but I think Wes's point was that the guitar is a particularly hard instrument to play jazz on. I think he's right!

I don't even think Wes was limiting his discussion to jazz guitar, but to guitar in general. Take Eddie Van Halen, for example. He is well known for having a guitar in his hands nearly all the time, at least in the days of his band. Barney Kessel may not appreciate his skills, but I sure do. I would think it is rare for anyone to be able to do anything at such a high level as Wes, Eddie, or Bill Gates, for that matter, without putting in a crazy amount of time getting to that level. It's what separates the best from the rest...desire and an unwillingness to fail.

[Hep To The Jive]

All require effort to learn, and much great effort to master, but I think Wes's point was that the guitar is a particularly hard instrument to play jazz on. I think he's right!

I think so too. Guitar doesn't lead itself naturally to jazz. With rock'n'roll, it's a different story. String bending, blues scale pattern playing, vibrato, double stops, open chords- it's a language of rock music, and it's absolutely natural to play on guitar, and I can't think of any other instruments that rival the guitar in that regard. I remember the band teacher in college said, you play a simple E triad on piano, and it doesnt sound like anything, but play an open E chord on guitar, and wow, it already sounds great! Lol.

But the language of jazz, bebop in particular, well, Charlie Parker lines are always struggle to execute on guitar, and from playing a sax briefly, I can tell that the mechanics of the instrument lead itself more toward that type of music.

[snoskier63]

I think so too. Guitar doesn't lead itself naturally to jazz. With rock'n'roll, it's a different story. String bending, blues scale pattern playing, vibrato, double stops, open chords- it's a language of rock music, and it's absolutely natural to play on guitar, and I can't think of any other instruments that rival the guitar in that regard. I remember the band teacher in college said, you play a simple E triad on piano, and it doesnt sound like anything, but play an open E chord on guitar, and wow, it already sounds great! Lol.

But the language of jazz, bebop in particular, well, Charlie Parker lines are always struggle to execute on guitar, and from playing a sax briefly, I can tell that the mechanics of the instrument lead itself more toward that type of music.

I don't completely disagree with you, and correct me if I am wrong, but your underlying inference seems to be that the guitar should be played just like the saxophone in a jazz context? If that is in part what you are inferring I don't agree with that. Each instrument has its own language, and if good enough one can play the guitar to mimic saxophone lines, yet the guitar was an important part of jazz before amplification, and continues to be important even when not mimicking saxophone lines. It has only been since then that some cats have emulated the saxophone in their guitar playing.

[Hep To The Jive]

I don't completely disagree with you, and correct me if I am wrong, but your underlying inference seems to be that the guitar should be played just like the saxophone in a jazz context? If that is in part what you are inferring I don't agree with that. Each instrument has its own language, and if good enough one can play the guitar to mimic saxophone lines, yet the guitar was an important part of jazz before amplification, and continues to be important even when not mimicking saxophone lines. It has only been since then that some cats have emulated the saxophone in their guitar playing.

The guitar was important part of jazz before the amplification, thats true, but mostly as a rhythm instrument. The first star guitar soloist who made an impact in jazz was Charlie Christian, and he totally adopted playing horn lines. Imo, the guitar with its very own language in jazz appeared in fusion settings. But again, it was an arsenal of rock tricks that guitarists brought to jazz at that period. I red an interview of Mike Stern, when he joined the Miles band in the 80's, he recalled that when he tried to play all those slick bebop lines, Miles told him instead to do all the crazy shit the rockers do. Something to the extend of hey, do what the guitar does best, and other instruments just wished they could.

[Groyniad]

django - wes - jim hall - these guys find a way to make the guitar work as a jazz instrument

i think that has to involve a positive negotiation with the physical properties of this particular instrument

i think one of my biggest problems is that i try to treat it like its just any soloing instrument (one that can accompany too) - and i avoid all guitaristic devices or strategies

i've always played jazz (be-bop) on the guitar (i didn't start with rock and i've never played rock) and i've always had real trouble making the instrument sound pleasant (at least with non-ballad playing). i played classical flute as a youngster - so maybe i've unrealistic expectations about how pleasant i should be sounding playing high tempo jazz guitar.

[snoskier63]

Hey Hep, nice Guild in your avatar. Is that a Hoboken X-175?

[Hep To The Jive]

Hey Hep, nice Guild in your avatar. Is that a Hoboken X-175?

Thanks! Well it's a fake Hoboken! It's a Korean reissue. I dont play it anymore, though. I got '62 Guild x50 now, the real one. Havent touched the reissue since then. I just can't

[snoskier63]

Thanks! Well it's a fake Hoboken! It's a Korean reissue. I dont play it anymore, though. I got '62 Guild x50 now, the real one. Havent touched the reissue since then. I just can't

The Korean models are nice, but Hoboken models are it! Congrats on the '62! Two of the best Guilds to me are a '61 X-175, and a '56 CE-100. They have been my favorites after the AP models.

[fumblefingers]

The guitar was important part of jazz before the amplification, thats true, but mostly as a rhythm instrument. The first star guitar soloist who made an impact in jazz was Charlie Christian, and he totally adopted playing horn lines. Imo, the guitar with its very own language in jazz appeared in fusion settings. But again, it was an arsenal of rock tricks that guitarists brought to jazz at that period. I red an interview of Mike Stern, when he joined the Miles band in the 80's, he recalled that when he tried to play all those slick bebop lines, Miles told him instead to do all the crazy shit the rockers do. Something to the extend of hey, do what the guitar does best, and other instruments just wished they could.

yeah i seem to remember reading that Miles told him -

"play it like Jimi!, play it like Jimi!"

Miles wanted the guitarrrrr thang.

[nick1994]

yeah i seem to remember reading that Miles told him -

"play it like Jimi!, play it like Jimi!"

Miles wanted the guitarrrrr thang.

I remember reading somewhere that miles wanted to do an album jimi Hendrix but then he died. I wonder how far they got before he died.

[zigzag]

The guitar was important part of jazz before the amplification, thats true, but mostly as a rhythm instrument. The first star guitar soloist who made an impact in jazz was Charlie Christian, and he totally adopted playing horn lines. Imo, the guitar with its very own language in jazz appeared in fusion settings. But again, it was an arsenal of rock tricks that guitarists brought to jazz at that period. I read an interview of Mike Stern, when he joined the Miles band in the 80's, he recalled that when he tried to play all those slick bebop lines, Miles told him instead to do all the crazy shit the rockers do. Something to the extend of hey, do what the guitar does best, and other instruments just wished they could.

(Jaco to Mike Stern,) "Forget about playing bebop. Turn it up and play that screaming shit. That's what the guitar was invented for! The guys playing those other instruments only wish they could do that." (Mike Stern added,) "And it's interesting, because that's pretty much what Miles (Davis) told me when I joined his band five years later. On stage he used to reach over and say in my ear, 'Turn it up or turn it off!'" -from Jaco, The Extraordinary and Tragic Life of Jaco Pastorius by Bill Milkowski, page 82

[Hep To The Jive]

(Jaco to Mike Stern,) "Forget about playing bebop. Turn it up and play that screaming shit. That's what the guitar was invented for! The guys playing those other instruments only wish they could do that." (Mike Stern added,) "And it's interesting, because that's pretty much what Miles (Davis) told me when I joined his band five years later. On stage he used to reach over and say in my ear, 'Turn it up or turn it off!'" -from Jaco, The Extraordinary and Tragic Life of Jaco Pastorius by Bill Milkowski, page 82

That's it! That's exactly where I saw it. Great book, btw., red it and re-red it.

[goldenwave77]

I don't even think Wes was limiting his discussion to jazz guitar, but to guitar in general. Take Eddie Van Halen, for example. He is well known for having a guitar in his hands nearly all the time, at least in the days of his band. Barney Kessel may not appreciate his skills, but I sure do. I would think it is rare for anyone to be able to do anything at such a high level as Wes, Eddie, or Bill Gates, for that matter, without putting in a crazy amount of time getting to that level. It's what separates the best from the rest...desire and an unwillingness to fail.

And of course...Eddie Van H. studied classical violin as a youngster. By the way, I think Barney K. is all wet: Not only is Eddie Van H. scary-fast but his rhythmic command and approach is amazing, IMO, he "swings in a rock way". Plenty of people play fast---not that many do it in a musical way, and that is why Eddie Van H. is a great musician. (Funny that Conti's "Precision Technique" exercises are classical violin etudes.) I'll stop here so as not to hijack my very own thread.

[scottkerr]

I think so too. Guitar doesn't lead itself naturally to jazz. With rock'n'roll, it's a different story. String bending, blues scale pattern playing, vibrato, double stops, open chords- it's a language of rock music, and it's absolutely natural to play on guitar, and I can't think of any other instruments that rival the guitar in that regard. I remember the band teacher in college said, you play a simple E triad on piano, and it doesnt sound like anything, but play an open E chord on guitar, and wow, it already sounds great! Lol.

But the language of jazz, bebop in particular, well, Charlie Parker lines are always struggle to execute on guitar, and from playing a sax briefly, I can tell that the mechanics of the instrument lead itself more toward that type of music.

Getting a lot from all your insights here. This morning listening to NY wkcr where they were playing Scrapple from the Apple from the Howard theatre in 52. Not often I hear a guitar really holding its own like that. It was Charlie Byrd.

[Hep To The Jive]

And of course...Eddie Van H. studied classical violin as a youngster

You mean classical piano? I never heard about him playing violin, he always mentioned his first instrument was piano before he came to the States... But I might just missed it.

[goldenwave77]

OK...re-checked the interview which I'd read a long time ago...it's in a book of interview compilations with different guitarists.

He mentions being trained as a classical pianist, first in Holland then again over in the States. He states that he came to the States and

"my dad found another good teacher. Basically, that's where I got my ears developed, learned my theory, and got my fingers moving. Then when the Dave Clark Five and those bands came out, I wanted to go [plays the riff from 'Your Really Got Me'] I didn't want to go clink, clink, clink. I still play piano, and I also play violin."

So, this is not very explicit...not going "clink, clink, clink" means not playing piano, I guess. He does state he never had a guitar lesson, except for a friend who showed him barre chords, and he just "went from there". So perhaps he picked up violin on his own: He only mentions being "trained on classical piano" so I think you're probably right on this. So both he and Charlie Christian started out on piano....like lots of others, I'm guessing.

[christianm77]

Then you have Mike Brecker who copied what the rock guitar players were doing.

I really dig what people are saying here, I have to say. Bebop is tough on the guitar man, and there's always an element to great bop guitar which sounds like a dog standing on its hind legs. I don't think it's any surprise that the most influential guitar players in jazz have been those that have been able to make jazz somehow natural to the guitar, most obviously the post rock players.

But Wes, and Charlie Christian are certainly among those players that have made jazz fit the guitar somehow.

[w3stie]

Was rereading an interview with Wes M. and was struck by his following statement, which I think applies to experienced/advanced players, as well as more "junior" players:

"...But when you find guitar players that are playing, you'll find out that at one time they never cared if they never played, they were going to keep on until they did. After a period of time the beginning player will hear a little difference in his playing, and that little inspiration is enough to go further, and the first thing you know you won't back out. The biggest problem is getting started. ..." (Secrets From the Masters, 1992)

I'm going to print that out and stick it on my music stand!

[ptrallan01]

Perhaps I'm wrong but Django made a pretty big impact on Jazz before Charlie Christian.

Having played Flute, Violin, Accordian, Bass, Piano and last Guitar, each instrument has it strength and its difficulty. Guitar is the easiest to move around in terms of keys and violin is the least physically demanding. Playing Jazz on any of these instruments is a challenge. EVERYBODY stinks in the beginning and at some point you have to decide you're going to do it anyway. Learning horn lines is a great way to know how to do solos but accordians and pianos have lots to offer guitarists for rhythm and poly note playing. You won't ever sound like a piano, you won't ever have the fluidity of horn players but if you adopt the lines to the various places on the guitar and accept its limitations you can produce beautiful music of any style with your own unique voice.

BTW I still stink at all of these instruments, I just stink at guitar the least!