Charlie Christian Picking question

[Rodney Gene]

Hey folks, new member. Good day. Links to previous posts to read are cool.

Did Charlie ever fingerpick? Or hybrid? I have been learning a couple classic CC tunes and have gotten them pretty well up to speed with good feel, but for now I can only pull it off with a bit of hybrid picking.

Thank you!

[MarkRhodes]

According to Barney Kessel, who saw Christian play, Charlie used mainly downstrokes. (Frank Vignola, a conemporary guitarists influenced by swing / gypsy players says of his own picking that it is "mostly down.")

[Rodney Gene]

Thank you Mark. I appreciate that!

I would like to capture more of that CC picking style and phrasing. That will be a big help!

[larry graves]

What!... No Pick!!.....

[Rodney Gene]

Oh Boy! Thanks Larry!

Edit: I found many pictures of him holding that big pick as has been described by those who saw him play. A few without, but mostly with. Maybe he changed it up? Anyway, thank you for the info.

[pubylakeg]

Judging by the tone and feel this guy is getting, the finger picking technique may well be an significant part of Charlie's bag.

[MarkRhodes]

What!... No Pick!!.....

Don't make too much of that picture. It's a publicity shot. Charlie played with a pick.

[christianm77]

Yeah it's a real challenge, especially on fast things like I Found a New Baby to do *all* downstrokes.

I suppose without film the jury's out. I like to think a gypsy jazz style picking approach (i.e. start every new string with a downstroke, end every phrase with a downstroke) is a good compromise. Given that there were quite a few non gypsy players who used this type of picking patterns - Joe Pass and George Benson, for example, it's not too much of a stretch? I find this gives me the necessary agility IIRC - been a while since I played any Charlie C along with the record.

After all Kessell did say 'mostly downstrokes'

I'v enever really got the appeal of hybrid picking myself, unless you are playing lots of string skips or country style licks. I'm happy with my flat pick.

On the other hand you have Charlie Christian's contemporary Oscar Aleman who played with a thumb pick and fingers. He had some lovely things he did across the strings (although he was playing acoustic at this point.)

[mr. beaumont]

It's the attack of the over literal jazz guitar players again...

Even Barney said "MOSTLY downstrokes." Doesn't mean "nothing but downstrokes.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't about 85-90% downsyrokes, though. I've transcribed several CC solos, and you can definitely hear a change in articulation on some faster lines. But Charlie didn't do that too often either.

I mean, listen to the lick around 1:00 in, when Charlie hits the bridge. He's alternate picking. There's no doubt about it.

[mr. beaumont]

Double post, sorry, I get agitated.

[monk]

Don't make too much of that picture. It's a publicity shot. Charlie played with a pick.

Christian played with a pick.

Interviews with friends and musicians who worked with him have never mentioned CC ever playing fingerstyle. One would think that if CC ever indulged in a classical piece or busted out some Piedmont style blues someone would have noticed and mentioned it.

In Goins and McKinney's exhaustive 417 page biography of Charlie Christian, which included interviews with Charlie's brother, friends, family and co-workers, no one ever mentioned CC ever wanting to do anything other than play jazz and make the guitar sound like a horn.

Django played predominately with a pick but also played fingerstyle which has been verified by interviews with his contemporaries as well as recordings Reinhardt made playing fingerstyle. No such proof exists for Christian.

George Barnes, another Swing guitar great, said in many interviews that he used mostly downstrokes.

This is not to say that CC, DR and GB didn't play upstrokes, only that they played "mostly downstrokes".

Charlie's contemporaries have said, many times, that he liked to play loud to match and blend with the horns. The picture above may have been snapped of Charlie playing rhythm with his thumb so as not to overpower the band or, as Mark said, it may have been a publicity picture. We'll likely never know.

Mr. Sato, in the above video, proves that one can get an eerily similar sound to Christian using the thumb and, probably, an increase in amp volume.

However I would caution anyone not to place undue emphasis on a random photograph in order to validate hopes that doing the work that has to be done can be avoided.

Respectfully,
Jerome

[jasonc]

Watch Matt Munisteri play. He plays a lot of downstrokes. That's the way I always imagined Charlie playing.

[pubylakeg]

Mr. Sato, in the above video, proves that one can get an eerily similar sound to Christian using the thumb and, probably, an increase in amp volume.

Absolutely, my only intention in posting the clip was to illustrate that there may have been occasions when Charlie might have played without a pick.

Also of considerable significance is the documented anecdote about Eddie Durham teaching Charlie to emphasize the down-stroke. I'd also say that there are a lot of Charlie's lines that can only really be played with alternate picking.

The truth is that these details are sadly lost to history, but I'd say to the OP, there will only ever be one Charlie Christian, and no-one else will ever play in exactly the same manner. Approach his style in a manner that works for you.

[Rodney Gene]

Hey all, thank you for the info. it is appreciated! I am new to the idea of 'downstrokes' as a dominant approach and look forward to maturing in that direction. I am not wanting to copy Charlie or anybody but I have found myself more enthralled than ever with his playing and phrasing. I have been listening a great deal of George Barnes, Jimmy Bryant and Bill Jennings as of late also. What a deep wide path to mosey down.

Someone asked why i would even consider hybrid picking and the answer is, I haven't really considered it, nor chosen it nor decided upon it but rather it is a skill set I have some momentum with. We naturally tend to use our current skill set to bridge our learning. I do anyway.

I was able to video myself playing the Seven Come Eleven tune last night. Notes are there up to speed, phrasing is stiff, and I have to hybrid the whole time but it's getting me thinking in new ways and that is enjoyable. Thanks again for the info~ Cheers, RG

[Rodney Gene]

Like I said, stiff and a bit awkward and only available to me through hybrid playing. I am going to spend some time over the next several weeks working on my flat picking and downstrokes and re-examine the other tunes again. I have been working on George Barnes Little Rock Getaway and need to re-examine that also.

Thanks again all~ I appreciate the info and suggestions!

Cheers, RG

(sorry for the poor light, it was a quick idea to video myself)

[monk]

Sounds good, Rodney! You're well on your way to nailing it. If I hadn't been watching you I wouldn't have suspected that you were hybrid picking. The most important thing is that you're getting the job done. Keep it up.

[Dexma]

In gypsy style playing downstrokes while changing strings. I quess that gives a really sophisticated boost to playing. First the downstroke sounds harder and then it gives little laid back feeling to phraseing. Thats why to me its always hard to start playing Djangos solos directly. While looking some good notes and transcription and listening the lick what Django plays. Its like there happened something big, but it happened so softly and fast at the same time it is hard to catch it and copy it.

Some thumb player did once said, that playing just downstroke with thumb makes it easy to swing always. It swings like automatically.