Grant Green's Blue Note tone

**vinnyv1k** · 08-28-2015, 04:49 AM

Always loved it and spent my hole life trying to duplicate it. Yes he played a ES330 and then in '64 the Black L7. I even bought a 330 trying to match it many years ago. I know George Benson said he maxed the middle control on his amp and turned off the treble and bass but in the early 60's most amps didn't have a middle control. From early pics it looks like his strings are on the heavy side. Early 60's means a Alnico speaker in the amp. Does anyone know for sure what amp he used on his Blue Note recordings. After Blue Note his tone changed. Not interested in his later tone. I can get that but his Blue Note tone was magical and allusive. Being a audiophile I should be able to figure this tone out but I can't match it. You ever notice that new guitars and amps just don't have that magic tone of yesteryear ? Another example would be Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue.
New P90's don't sound the same either. Was it the USA tubes made in the 50's and 60's and now all we have are the Russian & Chinese made ? Greentone what say you ? Don't get me wrong I loved his later tone too. In fact I bought a D'Aquisto because that is what Grant played. Just something out of this world about his ES330 days tone.

**Little Jay** · 08-28-2015, 06:54 AM

From several sources on the web (but I couldn't point you to them.. forgot, sorry...) I read that Rudy van Gelder had a Fender Deluxe in his studio and Grant always used that. No middle knob on that one! It would certainly explain the 'hair' on his tone (I love his tone too, btw!) since a Deluxe does not have an awful lot of headroom. There are some pictures on the web where you can see him using an Ampeg, but that's in the later period I think.

**Little Jay** · 08-28-2015, 06:56 AM

Here's a discussion about the amps I found google-ing:

What kind of guitar amp did Rudy Van Gelder have in the 60s? - Re-issues - organissimo forums

**Little Jay** · 08-28-2015, 07:00 AM

Here's a discussion about the amps I found google-ing:

What kind of guitar amp did Rudy Van Gelder have in the 60s? - Re-issues - organissimo forums

If you google "Rudy van Gelder Fender Deluxe amp" you'll stumble upon a lot more 'evidence' for the Deluxe amp. But nowhere I see real direct sources cited or quotations that confirm this without a doubt.

**boatheelmusic** · 08-28-2015, 07:05 AM

Let's not overlook the recording chain for those years - mic'd amps into tube boards into reel to reel tape.....

**pubylakeg** · 08-28-2015, 01:37 PM

We could always try e-mailing him and asking him.

**Greentone** · 08-28-2015, 01:46 PM

Van Gelder was very, very picky about his microphones and boards--he didn't want them overloaded. He did want people using his amps because he trusted that they could be recorded without killing his gear. During the Blue Note period, Van Gelder had a tweed Fender Deluxe amp--which is quite middle heavy--in the studio. For bass, he had an Ampeg amp, I believe. He maintained a Hammond B3/Leslie speaker. I don't know what else. The original studio was, I believe, his parent's house.

To my ear, the early Grant Green sound is a Gibson ES-330 on the neck P90, through a Fender tweed amp--probably a 5e3 Deluxe. It sounds like he is on the "instrument" not the "mic" channel (or the "normal" not the "bright"). You can try input #1, but I like #2 on the "normal" channel on the tweed Deluxe, for Grant Green Blue Note sounds. No reverb, although I have an outboard reverb handy. Volume = 3, Tone = 6.

When gigging, Green would often use a Super Reverb in the early 60s. Try Bass = 1, Middle = 9, Treble = 1. This approximates Green's sound, to my ear, through the Super Reverb. However, I much prefer a smaller amp for the GG sound.

If I had to guess, I would bet that Green used Gibson Sonomatic E-340 strings (.12-.56) strings on his guitar. I used to use them in the 60s, and Green's guitar sort of sounds like that gauge and string, to me.

**vinnyv1k** · 08-28-2015, 02:29 PM

Thanks Greentone....I know you are the man when it comes to Grant.

**neatomic** · 08-28-2015, 05:42 PM

funny was going to post this to "listening to now" thread but...

greens second recording session..already has some of his classic phrases intact and even his tone is there

sam lazar- space flight

and now i'm onto john patton-blue john …thats a 63 bluenote and green is his classic self

i've always heard the fender tweed deluxe was the amp as well..i know burrell used it

and yes van gelder had his set up that he worked with..i'd imagine the players just showed up with their instruments

he was also one of the first studio guys to go for the neumann condenser mics..which cleared up tone ie increased highs over the older ribbon mics (as good as they were for certain things)

cheers

ps- and i'd bet van gelder was very careful about his mics..he came from the era where a ribbon mic could be ruined by asudden loud volume or even a strong gust of air..they are very fragile mics

**pubylakeg** · 08-28-2015, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Van Gelder was very, very picky about his microphones and boards--

Isn't there a story about a recording session being abandoned, and the musicians requested to leave the studio after a musician (Red Mitchell ?) casually adjusted one of the controls on the mixing desk ?.

**Philco** · 08-28-2015, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Always loved it and spent my hole life trying to duplicate it. Yes he played a ES330 and then in '64 the Black L7. I even bought a 330 trying to match it many years ago. I know George Benson said he maxed the middle control on his amp and turned off the treble and bass but in the early 60's most amps didn't have a middle control. From early pics it looks like his strings are on the heavy side. Early 60's means a Alnico speaker in the amp. Does anyone know for sure what amp he used on his Blue Note recordings. After Blue Note his tone changed. Not interested in his later tone. I can get that but his Blue Note tone was magical and allusive. Being a audiophile I should be able to figure this tone out but I can't match it. You ever notice that new guitars and amps just don't have that magic tone of yesteryear ? Another example would be Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue.
New P90's don't sound the same either. Was it the USA tubes made in the 50's and 60's and now all we have are the Russian & Chinese made ? Greentone what say you ? Don't get me wrong I loved his later tone too. In fact I bought a D'Aquisto because that is what Grant played. Just something out of this world about his ES330 days tone.

You've been given plenty of gear type suggestions so may I point out that Mr Green had a distinctive and particular picking style. Doesn't seem like a heavy pick and it sounds like lots of blade. Also look WHERE he picks because we know that makes a big difference.
That short video of him, Barney and Kenny....you can see him adjusting his grip, pick is right back from the thumb and a very definite stroke with what sounds like the blade face on.

A big part of anyone's tone comes from how , where and with what they strike the string. Also try to get some Monel Steel flat wounds ....the kind he would have used back in the day.
Could solve part of the puzzle. It's a freaking great sound.
Good luck!

**neatomic** · 08-28-2015, 09:18 PM

yeah rotosounds 12-52 monel flats be as close as you can get..a tad lighter..but..its a thin body full hollow 330

cheers

dortmundjazzguitar · 08-29-2015, 04:58 AM

**vinnyv1k** · 08-29-2015, 12:54 PM

Nice Dortmund !

**Greentone** · 08-29-2015, 01:32 PM

My guess is that he was using Gibson 340 Sonomatic sets: .12-.56 in the orange pack from the 60s. It was a pretty good set, back in the day. It would have produced an almost short-scale Gibson bass sound (EB-2) on the low A and E strings.

One thing is for sure--Grant Green's tone on the Blue Note stuff is simply addictive. The sound of his pick moving across the strings, whenever he did double stops--or his occasional chords--is immediate and arresting. His single-note lines speak like a horn.

**Bebop Tom** · 11-09-2015, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

My guess is that he was using Gibson 340 Sonomatic sets: .12-.56 in the orange pack from the 60s. It was a pretty good set, back in the day. It would have produced an almost short-scale Gibson bass sound (EB-2) on the low A and E strings.

One thing is for sure--Grant Green's tone on the Blue Note stuff is simply addictive. The sound of his pick moving across the strings, whenever he did double stops--or his occasional chords--is immediate and arresting. His single-note lines speak like a horn.

Grant Green Jr, on his facebook page, states that his father used .14-.58 strings (same as Wes' gauge).

**Greentone** · 11-09-2015, 03:35 PM

That's pretty definitive. That would produce an _even more_ short-scale bass tone on the A and E strings on that ES-330 than the set I mentioned. It's a great choice, IMO, for the vibe he was going for. Nobody in jazz, with a bebop feel, was bending notes much--except Herb Ellis--in the late-50s and early 60s.

Put that same Wes/Grant set of strings on a Fender solid-body of the day, back then, and you'd be surprised at the tone you'd get--essentially a thick, commanding bebop tone. Try it on a Jazzmaster or a Telecaster and see.

Gibson Sonomatics and Black Diamond strings back in the early 60s were some pretty good strings. Johnny Smith says he used the latter.

**wintermoon** · 11-09-2015, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

That's pretty definitive. That would produce an _even more_ short-scale bass tone on the A and E strings on that ES-330 than the set I mentioned. It's a great choice, IMO, for the vibe he was going for. Nobody in jazz, with a bebop feel, was bending notes much--except Herb Ellis--in the late-50s and early 60s.

Put that same Wes/Grant set of strings on a Fender solid-body of the day, back then, and you'd be surprised at the tone you'd get--essentially a thick, commanding bebop tone. Try it on a Jazzmaster or a Telecaster and see.

Gibson Sonomatics and Black Diamond strings back in the early 60s were some pretty good strings. Johnny Smith says he used the latter.

add Kessel to the list. major league bender, even more than Ellis