Allan Holdsworth RIP

[joelf]

if by content you mean pitch choices...

I mean vocabulary, and specifically non-'guitar ghetto' meat and potatoes musical vocabulary. If I hear guitar, guitar, guitar I don't care how great it is, my ears glaze over (to mix a metaphor) and it doesn't take that long. Same thing if it gets too far away from melody and good, well-paced phrasing. Same for a 'floating', non-defined time feel.

I want to be open and learn, but you also need to believe in things. If you don't your music will reflect it---and move no one.

Like the old saw goes: It all comes out in the wash...

[greveost]

Gotta say this: I'm watching the 1974 documentary Last of the Blue Devils, music that's near and dear to my heart. I even worked with one of the stars of that film. The blues and swing are plasma, lifeblood.

What I don't get from players like Holdsworth, Metheny, or Rosenwinkle---and all are great and have blown me away at different times---is any of that. Sorry, but that's the way I experience it.

So I have to approach them from an entirely different angle, and connect with the harmonic, technical, and---when I like them most---lyrical gifts. There are plenty of those, and they take me other places I also want to go. To be closed off and dismissive is to guarantee artistic suffocation. Good is good. Only a fool would deny that.

But I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm a little sad about how jazz (and its stepchildren) has changed. It reflects our age of technology, like everything else does now---and who am I to say it shouldn't? Plus, 'soul' is malleable and global.

But still...

People always feel this way.
And it will be like this in the future as well.

[christianm77]

Gotta say this: I'm watching the 1974 documentary Last of the Blue Devils, music that's near and dear to my heart. I even worked with one of the stars of that film. The blues and swing are plasma, lifeblood.

What I don't get from players like Holdsworth, Metheny, or Rosenwinkle---and all are great and have blown me away at different times---is any of that. Sorry, but that's the way I experience it.

So I have to approach them from an entirely different angle, and connect with the harmonic, technical, and---when I like them most---lyrical gifts. There are plenty of those, and they take me other places I also want to go. To be closed off and dismissive is to guarantee artistic suffocation. Good is good. Only a fool would deny that.

But I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm a little sad about how jazz (and its stepchildren) has changed. It reflects our age of technology, like everything else does now---and who am I to say it shouldn't? Plus, 'soul' is malleable and global.

But still...

jazz became estranged from its dance roots and became interested in the progressive narrative; that it should aim to emulate European ideas of musical progress.

many histories and reviews were written with his skewed perspective. I still feel people are obsessed with this idea in UK jazz. It can be cool.... but its just some sort of prog rock, and that’s what the aging hippies who run the scene like.

OTOH you are a product of your environment and background and you can’t help that.

[Marinero]

I couldn't make it to the 30 second mark . . . for me, this is not Jazz. Perhaps, those with a Rock background can relate more easily to this performance but I don't see any "magic" --just dope smoking music from the 60's/70's. Isn't it a great world that we all don't think the same! Good playing . . . Marinero

P.S. I, like President Clinton, never inhaled. However, I was probably listening to the following music. Good playing . . . Marinero

[greveost]

I couldn't make it to the 30 second mark . . . for me, this is not Jazz. Perhaps, those with a Rock background can relate more easily to this performance but I don't see any "magic" --just dope smoking music from the 60's/70's. Isn't it a great world that we all don't think the same! Good playing . . . Marinero

P.S. I, like President Clinton, never inhaled. However, I was probably listening to the following music. Good playing . . . Marinero

Or as Allan himself used to say, the problem with his music was always, it was too jazzy to appeal to the rock fans, and too rock to appeal to the jazz fans.

In this particular case, I think Sand is even more problematic, even the hardcore Allan fans often have difficulties listening to, and appreciate it.

Unfortunately, as it is one of the most unique and beautiful albums he ever did, criminally underrated.

[joelf]

What Did BS&T have to do w/Allan Holdsworth? Did he play on or write something for the album? I had this one and Child is Father to the Man (which I preferred) as a very young man. I never saw any reference to Holdsworth.

Did I miss something?

[Marinero]

What Did BS&T have to do w/Allan Holdsworth? Did he play on or write something for the album? I had this one and Child is Father to the Man (which I preferred) as a very young man. I never saw any reference to Holdsworth.

Did I miss something?

Yes, J,
Nothing. It was an attempt at humor: only someone smoking dope could listen to that "music/Holdsworth" IMO. The reference to B,S and T was rather than listening to H if I were imbibing . . . I would have listened to B,S and T. Sorry . . . Marinero

[Cunamara]

Yes, J,
Nothing. It was an attempt at humor: only someone smoking dope could listen to that "music/Holdsworth" IMO. The reference to B,S and T was rather than listening to H if I were imbibing . . . I would have listened to B,S and T. Sorry . . . Marinero

I've never listened to Holdsworth while imbibing anything and still enjoyed every note, so to each their own. While it's been nearly 40 years, my perhaps fuzzy recollection was that marijuana usually made music I didn't like even less tolerable.

That said, many great artists have their demons and Allan's was alcohol. The consequences of that are what claimed him in the end, after causing a lot of damage in his life.

[joelf]

I'm listening to this now (coming off Solo Flight--the Genius of Charlie Christian---a definite mistake).

Best I can say is that it has a cinematic quality, and I very much like the through-composed quality. That keeps it moving, and from becoming boring. But the mechanized environment of track 1 left me totally cold. It reminded me of Wayne Shorter's High Life---which I really liked, when I first heard it, that is. It would be a good soundtrack if they decided to remake Metropolis. But the lack of interaction (read: reaction) is totally lacking in both recordings. The drums, especially, a relentless backbeat drone. Zero dynamics. A sort of brilliant techno ego trip.

Track 2, the ballad, was much warmer to me---the slower swells, the wonderful harmony---sound more human.

Track 3 is also livelier, more intense.

I'd love to see and analyze the scores. I'd love even more to hear this music played live, with real musicians in real time.

That said, it's remarkable, and quite intriguing, on its own merits.

But I need some heart...

[PMB]

Selfishly I wish he’d played more with acoustic rhythm sections or in settings like this on acoustic guitar or clean guitar:

of course many would say that means I would want Allan to be just a jazz guitar player, whereas I feel that Allan the jazz guitarist as opposed to Allan the prog rock wizard could have had a bit more space; for my taste.

I remember visiting a friend's place in the late '70s and he played me the intro to this track. I immediately grabbed the LP cover to find out who the guitarist was. I knew Holdsworth's work with Soft Machine but I'd never heard him play acoustic guitar:

[joelf]

People always feel this way.
And it will be like this in the future as well.

Do you mean they fear and shun change, and want to cling to the past---and what they can understand and feel safe with?

Dear God, I hope I'm not one of those...

[Marinero]

Do you mean they fear and shun change, and want to cling to the past---and what they can understand and feel safe with?

Dear God, I hope I'm not one of those...

Hi, Joel,
Disliking a certain genre of music has nothing to do with "clinging to the past" or "feeling safe" but rather defining one's own personal tastes. Remember the words of the late/great Winston Churchill:

" Whenever two people think the same about everything . . .
There is only one person thinking . "

Good playing and enjoying the music that satisfies ME . . . Marinero

P.S. For the record, I dislike: Country/Western, Folk, Rap, Reggae, Punk, British Invasion Rock, Lawrence Welk, East Indian, Arabic,
Acid Rock, Grunge, Frank Sinatra imitators, Michael Jackson Kiddie Rock, Pyrotechnic bands, guitar smashers, animal mutilators, Heavy Metal . . .

Music I like: Straight ahead Jazz combos,Big Band, Bop, R&B, Soul/Funk, Bossa, Salsa, Rhumba, Son,Bolero,19th/early 20th Century Classical Music including the whole spectrum of Classical guitar literature(selectively) from the Renaissance to the 20th Century . . . with a strong emphasis on 19th Century Romantic Guitar.

So, with all that on my plate, why do I need to listen to music I dislike when I have a lifetime of enjoyment and listening? I could never scratch the surface of the music I love in 3 lifetimes.

Good playing . . . Marinero

[joelf]

Hi, Joel,
Disliking a certain genre of music has nothing to do with "clinging to the past" or "feeling safe" but rather defining one's own personal tastes.

It could indeed be just that if one is reacting, and feels threatened by something new. Jazz history is rife with such reactionary resistance---and I'm talking about the musicians.Remember the words of the late/great Winston Churchill:

" Whenever two people think the same about everything . . .
There is only one person thinking . "

Good playing and enjoying the music that satisfies ME . . . Marinero

P.S. For the record, I dislike: Country/Western, Folk, Rap, Reggae, Punk, British Invasion Rock, Lawrence Welk, East Indian, Arabic,
Acid Rock, Grunge, Frank Sinatra imitators, Michael Jackson Kiddie Rock, Pyrotechnic bands, guitar smashers, animal mutilators, Heavy Metal . . .

Music I like: Straight ahead Jazz combos,Big Band, Bop, R&B, Soul/Funk, Bossa, Salsa, Rhumba, Son,Bolero,19th/early 20th Century Classical Music including the whole spectrum of Classical guitar literature(selectively) from the Renaissance to the 20th Century . . . with a strong emphasis on 19th Century Romantic Guitar.

Nothing is all good or all bad. I'll take Johnny Cash any day over many boring, self-inflated 'jazz' players who play on and on and say little, but create jazz haters.

So, with all that on my plate, why do I need to listen to music I dislike when I have a lifetime of enjoyment and listening? I could never scratch the surface of the music I love in 3 lifetimes.

I'll confess to not loving hip hop. But I bet there's some good there, too. It ain't about the form, but who's doin' it, and what they're doin' with it...

Good playing . . . Marinero

oo

[christianm77]

Well I try not to be dismissive for reasons of genre because I think I miss out then.

I used to think I hated all country music and hip hop for instance.

i don’t like ‘fusion’. But; I do like Allan Holdsworth. And I’ve come around to Weather Report. And electric Miles. And so on.

but people get set in their ways. Cling on to comforting certainties. Which is a shame... nothing ventured....

[GuyBoden]

Some of Allan Holdsworth's chord harmony was both beautiful and very technically advanced. Too advanced for most players, but they still sound great. I'm not a big fan of his single note solo sound, but admire his technique.

Beauty in complexity.

House of mirrors. Checkout them voicings and give them a try.

[tele3]

Even a lot of AH's fans prefer his session works with other artists because they can't hear the dense harmonies in his own compositions. I've read a lot of complaints about his compositions as mediocre or boring, and I'm like . Maybe they were all drummers, jk.
His recordings sound dated especially those synths. Many many people hate his used of infamous Synthaxe, which I really like. Anyway, he was so much better in his live sets and you can never ever hear his true sound in any of those recordings, videos. Maybe you can get close if you find right bootlegs though you just don't hear the depth he had in his live sound. An official live recording THEN! is probably the closest you can access easily.

[christianm77]

I saw him live a couple of times. I remember being annoyed with the drummer (same one both times), but his sound was mega.

[Marinero]

"It could indeed be just that if one is reacting, and feels threatened by something new." JOEL

"Well I try not to be dismissive for reasons of genre because I think I miss out then." Christian



O.K., but we all have a limited amount of time to do what WE want to do, musically, and listen to what WE want to hear. I'm not advocating close-mindedness or existence in a self-imposed vacuum but rather that life is short and if you believe you've "found yourself" musically, you don't have much time for anything else if your goal is to perfect YOUR ART. I suppose Coltrane and Miles are good examples. Both reached out for something different later in life but ,in my opinion, their best work was in their early to mid years before the experimentation. And, in the case of Miles, his later Rock- based work was pure bullshit in my opinion. In fact, in Chicago, the Jazz DJ's stopped playing his music. . . probably elsewhere as well. So, thanks, both, for your honest replies. There are many ways to peel a grape . . . I guess we all have to find our own way. Good playing . . . Marinero

[Cunamara]

Do you mean they fear and shun change, and want to cling to the past---and what they can understand and feel safe with?

Dear God, I hope I'm not one of those...

We're all one of those sometimes.

[Cunamara]

[joelf]

"It could indeed be just that if one is reacting, and feels threatened by something new." JOEL

"Well I try not to be dismissive for reasons of genre because I think I miss out then." Christian



O.K., but we all have a limited amount of time to do what WE want to do, musically, and listen to what WE want to hear. I'm not advocating close-mindedness or existence in a self-imposed vacuum but rather that life is short and if you believe you've "found yourself" musically, you don't have much time for anything else if your goal is to perfect YOUR ART. I suppose Coltrane and Miles are good examples. Both reached out for something different later in life but ,in my opinion, their best work was in their early to mid years before the experimentation. And, in the case of Miles, his later Rock- based work was pure bullshit in my opinion. In fact, in Chicago, the Jazz DJ's stopped playing his music. . . probably elsewhere as well. So, thanks, both, for your honest replies. There are many ways to peel a grape . . . I guess we all have to find our own way. Good playing . . . Marinero

My philosophy is simple: Keep the door open, always.

But keep a broom right next to it, so in the morning you can open it and sweep the s&&t out...

[greveost]

I'm listening to this now (coming off Solo Flight--the Genius of Charlie Christian---a definite mistake).

Best I can say is that it has a cinematic quality, and I very much like the through-composed quality. That keeps it moving, and from becoming boring. But the mechanized environment of track 1 left me totally cold. It reminded me of Wayne Shorter's High Life---which I really liked, when I first heard it, that is. It would be a good soundtrack if they decided to remake Metropolis. But the lack of interaction (read: reaction) is totally lacking in both recordings. The drums, especially, a relentless backbeat drone. Zero dynamics. A sort of brilliant techno ego trip.

Track 2, the ballad, was much warmer to me---the slower swells, the wonderful harmony---sound more human.

Track 3 is also livelier, more intense.

I'd love to see and analyze the scores. I'd love even more to hear this music played live, with real musicians in real time.

That said, it's remarkable, and quite intriguing, on its own merits.

But I need some heart...

Awesome man! Most people are not willing to go out of their comfort zone, and actually LISTEN. They hear synth sounds, with 80/90's synth sounds, and then just dismisses the whole thing.

Meanwhile I DO understand why this album is dismissed by a lot of people, it is nevertheless a truly unique and beautiful album. And it shows Allans musicality and sense of space and dynamics, in a whole different way than what most people are used to hear.

Yes, Distance vs Desire is another gem!!

They used to play Pud Wud live sometimes, but to my knowledge the others were never played live.

In fact, that was I think, one of the downside with some of Allans music, some of the more recent songs became very difficult to play live, so for decades, they used to play pretty much the same set list with very little variation, unfortunately.

But yeah, Sand It is a hidden gem that I wish more people would discover.

[greveost]

Well I try not to be dismissive for reasons of genre because I think I miss out then.

I used to think I hated all country music and hip hop for instance.

i don’t like ‘fusion’. But; I do like Allan Holdsworth. And I’ve come around to Weather Report. And electric Miles. And so on.

but people get set in their ways. Cling on to comforting certainties. Which is a shame... nothing ventured....

Yes, there is so much great music out there and try having an open mind is definitely rewarding in so many ways.

Funny you mentioned you don't like fusion but you enjoy Allan, that is exactly what I used to say also! lol

Not implying that you are something that I used to be, so I hope you take it the right way.

What I really mean is just that nowadays, I have become more accepting towards what is commonly referred to as fusion again. I used to listen to fusion before I got interested in Jazz. And then I became a Jazz purist for MANY years. But then after that, I began appreciate all of the other good music out there again.

BTW, I love Weather Report, all versions of the band with Miroslav, Alphonso and later version of course with Jaco.

I also dig cheesy Pop Country, Snoop Dog (early), NAS, etc but lets talk about that another day, lol