Allan Holdsworth RIP

[Durban]

.....hell Three years since he passed Rip, seemed like yesterday, still not widely recognised, (i dont expect that to change much) Allan plays a different language.

the video a bit grainy, but listen to those chords, and how he manipulates the volume to make it what it is.

People talk about Coltrane & Bird, .i am a Parker Coltrane Powell freak. but Allan imo was beyond them, but it really means sod all. its like Debussy they knew he was good back then, but now days we all know. it will probably be 50 years before he is finally recognised by even musicians ( no disrespect here )

Enjoy this, no single lines .chordal statement, musical sound of the highest order, that boy on bass is ok ha ha he is right in there.

ps

@ 2.14 - 2.28 ish Allan goes to church

.

[Rob MacKillop]

I've never been into the sound he uses, but recognise he has been one of the greatest in the last 50 years. Beyond Parker and Trane? Hmm, I won't say no, but...

[neatomic]

always nice to remember such a stellar and humble musician...i was huge holdsworth fan from his beginnings..tempest...soft machine..gong...tony williams


here's a burner he wrote on tony williams lifetime lp- believe it-

fred

i'm reticent to compare him with bird or trane, but his idol was indeed trane..he was trying to sound like trane with a guitar..no easy feat..and yet he probably pulled it off better than anyone!!


rip allan..you were a true force

cheers

[janepaints]

.....hell Three years since he passed Rip, seemed like yesterday, still not widely recognised, (i dont expect that to change much) Allan plays a different language.

the video a bit grainy, but listen to those chords, and how he manipulates the volume to make it what it is.

People talk about Coltrane & Bird, .i am a Parker Coltrane Powell freak. but Allan imo was beyond them, but it really means sod all. its like Debussy they knew he was good back then, but now days we all know. it will probably be 50 years before he is finally recognised by even musicians ( no disrespect here )

Enjoy this, no single lines .chordal statement, musical sound of the highest order, that boy on bass is ok ha ha he is right in there.

ps

@ 2.14 - 2.28 ish Allan goes to church

.

WOW!! Effing WOW! someone recently asked if I listened to him, in response to a video I'd shared. I hadn't--beyond a general awareness of his name and critic's descriptions as being of the 'fusion' genre.

The 'fusion' description is why I'd never been much curious to listen to him. Idiot me.

Idiot definitions and categorizations. This is simply MUSIC. Very pure music, pure sound. No clittery-clattery volleys of notes going 200 mph at 90 zillion megawatts.

WOW! Reminds me of an artist friend's 'statement' about what they do: "painting glimpses of beautiful"

[christianm77]

I've never been into the sound he uses, but recognise he has been one of the greatest in the last 50 years. Beyond Parker and Trane? Hmm, I won't say no, but...

i think his tone was always a compromise - distortion was the only way to get that sustain and legato really, but I remember him saying in an interview he wasn’t really happy with it. (Very restless artist.)

i love Allan’s music despite the general (very 80s reverb) sound on his records rather than because of it. He was obviously hearing something, but I prefer the warmer organic sound of his 70s recordings.

also Allan was one of the first artists who took control of making records, producing and releasing them himself. Problem is that means most of it is tracked, so as a jazz listener I find that a big sacrifice and to me it often sounds like everyone is overplaying on those recordings, perhaps inevitably. Allan’s music doesn’t suffer too much from this - but I think it could be better.

im not sure if 16 men of tain was recorded in more live conditions but I prefer that record above most of the others.

the emotional journey of this track is amazing to me

Selfishly I wish he’d played more with acoustic rhythm sections or in settings like this on acoustic guitar or clean guitar:

of course many would say that means I would want Allan to be just a jazz guitar player, whereas I feel that Allan the jazz guitarist as opposed to Allan the prog rock wizard could have had a bit more space; for my taste.

[christianm77]

WOW!! Effing WOW! someone recently asked if I listened to him, in response to a video I'd shared. I hadn't--beyond a general awareness of his name and critic's descriptions as being of the 'fusion' genre.

The 'fusion' description is why I'd never been much curious to listen to him. Idiot me.

Idiot definitions and categorizations. This is simply MUSIC. Very pure music, pure sound. No clittery-clattery volleys of notes going 200 mph at 90 zillion megawatts.

WOW! Reminds me of an artist friend's 'statement' about what they do: "painting glimpses of beautiful"

very well put.

Allan is an artist I have often had conversations with non guitarists about which is always great, because I think guitarists can find it very hard to hear past the technicality of what he is doing. but the technique is so advanced, he’s just free within it. It doesn’t matter.

Non guitarists hear it more emotionally... which i think is what Allan was trying to do.

Painting is a great comparison.

[ragman1]

Blimey, those chords written on the vid look a bit troublesome.

[joelf]

Don't see the point in comparisons, and, frankly, do not think they are warranted.

Anyway, he was his own man, speaking a language he seems to have created, and with utmost fluency. That's the important thing, and that it's apples and oranges.

I like his landscapes---the tunes he devised, playgrounds for his style. I find his harmonic language intriguing, and currently over my head---I'd have to study it. But what most interests me, for selfish reasons, is that he used more LH than right for execution. That marriage to legato enables us to play not only long phrases, but odd, against-the-meter groupings of 5s, 7s, etc. When I posted about Woody Shaw, and his use of those asymmetric groupings, I wondered in the thread about execution of those type passages. Picking every note would sound corny and silly---and possibly undoable. It would have to be the LH doing the heavy lifting. Which immediately brought to mind...

Allan Holdsworth...

[joelf]

i think his tone was always a compromise - distortion was the only way to get that sustain and legato really, but I remember him saying in an interview he wasn’t really happy with it. (Very restless artist.)

i love Allan’s music despite the general (very 80s reverb) sound on his records rather than because of it. He was obviously hearing something, but I prefer the warmer organic sound of his 70s recordings.

also Allan was one of the first artists who took control of making records, producing and releasing them himself. Problem is that means most of it is tracked, so as a jazz listener I find that a big sacrifice and to me it often sounds like everyone is overplaying on those recordings, perhaps inevitably. Allan’s music doesn’t suffer too much from this - but I think it could be better.

im not sure if 16 men of tain was recorded in more live conditions but I prefer that record above most of the others.

the emotional journey of this track is amazing to me

Selfishly I wish he’d played more with acoustic rhythm sections or in settings like this on acoustic guitar or clean guitar:

of course many would say that means I would want Allan to be just a jazz guitar player, whereas I feel that Allan the jazz guitarist as opposed to Allan the prog rock wizard could have had a bit more space; for my taste.

Yeah, I like these way better than (his solo on) the Tony Williams track. That one had IMO endless streams of notes with few breaths and I was beginning to wonder if it was really for me---accomplished though it is. Started to remind me a little of the hammy guitar gymnastics of Jeff Beck, but on a higher level. But these show a melodic, lyrical side---with really nice spacing, a great compositional concept, very organized thought---and a harmonic approach that's almost otherwordly.

How did he do it? I gotta get some recordings and check this MF out. He's unique and fresh---and I wanna steal (just a little)...

[Durban]

I've never been into the sound he uses, but recognise he has been one of the greatest in the last 50 years. Beyond Parker and Trane? Hmm, I won't say no, but...

hi Rob i should rephrase that i really meant equal imo, as Coltrane was beyond Parker purely because had CP lived he would have been into different things, Whilst on that CP loved Varese which is not jazz or Blues,

So really meant Allan took the harmonic language further down the road. Rather like Wayne Shorter and others took Jazz/Bebop further with non and functional harmony etc It is that considering Allan to be in the same league, and why he is not perhaps recognised widely lets face the truth it is far more complicated than most music harmonically.

[christianm77]

Yeah, I like these way better than (his solo on) the Tony Williams track. That one had IMO endless streams of notes with few breaths and I was beginning to wonder if it was really for me---accomplished though it is. Started to remind me a little of the hammy guitar gymnastics of Jeff Beck, but on a higher level. But these show a melodic, lyrical side---with really nice spacing, a great compositional concept, very organized thought---and a harmonic approach that's almost otherwordly.

How did he do it? I gotta get some recordings and check this MF out. He's unique and fresh---and I wanna steal (just a little)...

Yeah (I mean I like Beck, but I know where you are coming from)

I think Allan’s speed demon stuff is well understood. That’s what otherwise straight up rock players took from him, but that’s it really. (Joe Satriani for instance freely admits that his Lifetime era playing was a huge influence.... I’d go a little further, haha... )

However his writing, melodic improvisation and lines are remarkably original. And not so much has been talked about how he constructs lines and so on. Jens Larsen did a thing a while back on YT.

[Rob MacKillop]

Has anyone studied his transcriptions?

Sorry! Something went wrong!

[joelf]

I watched this, and aside from liking his humility and humor, got some insight into his thinking. He uses diatonic scales and chords in an un-diatonic way. His comments at the end about not loving or thinking in the through bass system for his approach is, I think, a key to the freshness of the sound. And he demonstrates this nicely on the last piece (Hall of Mirrors). Composers coming to mind not resolving things in a cadencial way are Wayne Shorter, and certain of Tom Harrell's pieces (January Spring, Marimba Song, etc.).

It's very 'of the guitar', which isn't my favorite musical mindset--but these concepts could easily be universally applied. It's telling (ironic?) that he says he never much liked the guitar, and learned to tolerate it by trying to sound more like a horn. That puts him IMO in the category of the better jazz guitarists who 'simulate an air column'..

[joelf]

Yeah (I mean I like Beck, but I know where you are coming from)

I think Allan’s speed demon stuff is well understood. That’s what otherwise straight up rock players took from him, but that’s it really. (Joe Satriani for instance freely admits that his Lifetime era playing was a huge influence.... I’d go a little further, haha... )

However his writing, melodic improvisation and lines are remarkably original. And not so much has been talked about how he constructs lines and so on. Jens Larsen did a thing a while back on YT.

I know Jens. We hung in the Hague. Good cat, good player.

Agree about the concepts. They are remarkable...

[christianm77]

I watched this, and aside from liking his humility and humor, got some insight into his thinking. He uses diatonic scales and chords in an un-diatonic way. His comments at the end about not loving or thinking in the through bass system for his approach is, I think, a key to the freshness of the sound. And he demonstrates this nicely on the last piece (Hall of Mirrors). Composers coming to mind not resolving things in a cadencial way are Wayne Shorter, and certain of Tom Harrell's pieces (January Spring, Marimba Song, etc.).

It's very 'of the guitar', which isn't my favorite musical mindset--but these concepts could easily be universally applied. It's telling (ironic?) that he says he never much liked the guitar, and learned to tolerate it by trying to sound more like a horn. That puts him IMO in the category of the better jazz guitarists who 'simulate an air column'...

Guitarist wise, he has mentioned transcribing Charlie Christian, I think Django and being heavily influenced by Jimmy Raneys album in Three Attitudes.

And then all the horn players, Parker, Cannonball, Trane...

So yeah. He’d agree. It’s funny how his influences are the same as mine...

http://fingerprintsweb.net/ahwiki/in...27s_influences

[joelf]

Guitarist wise, he has mentioned transcribing Charlie Christian,
I think Django and being heavily influenced by Jimmy Raneys album in Three Attitudes.

And then all the horn players, Parker, Cannonball, Trane...

So yeah. He’d agree.

Don't doubt it, but in content it seems at first blush more in his head than apparent to the ear. It's more that legato approach that simulates breathing.

But then, I've only started listening, and maybe it's that he really is original. (And my taste is, and always will be, the more daylight between notes the better. So I'd start with his more spaced chords---easier to grasp and more in line with my own spatial hearing)...

[christianm77]

But I think Trane was the big one, and 20th century classical composers.

[joelf]

But I think Trane was the big one, and 20th century classical composers.

Like Woody Shaw (whom I've attempted to start a study group of here---thus far with few results---HINT, HINT LOL!)...

[christianm77]

Don't doubt it, but in content it seems at first blush more in his head than apparent to the ear. It's more that legato approach that simulates breathing.

if by content you mean pitch choices... Well can be a very guitaristic approach.... sometimes almost naively (I often think the best players are willing to be a little naive and childish almost in their approach which can be surprising behind the sophistication. They use stuff everyone else has rejected. )

By which I mean, he’ll do things like carry the same graphical shape over the strings rather than altering it to acknowledge the tuning of the instrument and stuff like this... a lot three notes and string digital permutations. Stuff that fits under his fingers if not necessarily ours....

I’m not entirely sure if he ever sat down and copped bebop in the sense that you or I might. I think it informs his phrasing, but pitch wise, it’s not the same thing at all...

However from my limited experience working on his stuff I would say his solos on standards are often more conventional... but that could be rubbish. Anyone else?

[joelf]

Speaking in one's own voice and having influences can co-exist quite well in many of the greatest players. The security in oneself, and inquisitiveness that spurs growth allow the opening of doors...

[dlew919]

Allan Holdsworth - Toppermost

Here’s my take on holdsworth. NFI.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[greveost]

I grew up on Allan, I used to listen to him all the time back in the days, met him a few times, and saw him live a few times.

Unbelievable stuff for sure. Even though I love his music, his live performances were sometimes a little thick, lots of notes. I remember him saying it was a compromise having to play a distorted guitar, as he felt forced to play all the time, and leave very little space in between the notes. He found way more freedom when he played the SynthAxe. And it is also clear that he was much more comfortable leaving space in between the notes when he used the Synthaxe.

I know most people absolutely dislike the Synthaxe, for me personally though, even with the dated synth sounds (I really like them) Sand is one of his best albums.

Listen to the title track, Sand, Husbands outstanding drumming, and Johnsons (the best bass player Allan ever had) beautiful melodic bass lines.

And when Allan enters, it is pure magic, god damn, too perfect!!

[greveost]

But with all due respect,


I don't agree that Allan is not widely known, I think he is very well known.

And I don't agree that he is bigger than Trane.

I really don't see the need to compare the two, not that I am bothered by it, but it just does not make much sense.

[greveost]

And for the guitar oriented people who never heard Sand, I would recommend the epic 4:15 Bradford Excecutive, also absolutely mind blowing, but hey, it's ALLAN!!

[joelf]

Gotta say this: I'm watching the 1974 documentary Last of the Blue Devils, music that's near and dear to my heart. I even worked with one of the stars of that film. The blues and swing are plasma, lifeblood.

What I don't get from players like Holdsworth, Metheny, or Rosenwinkle---and all are great and have blown me away at different times---is any of that. Sorry, but that's the way I experience it.

So I have to approach them from an entirely different angle, and connect with the harmonic, technical, and---when I like them most---lyrical gifts. There are plenty of those, and they take me other places I also want to go. To be closed off and dismissive is to guarantee artistic suffocation. Good is good. Only a fool would deny that.

But I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm a little sad about how jazz (and its stepchildren) has changed. It reflects our age of technology, like everything else does now---and who am I to say it shouldn't? Plus, 'soul' is malleable and global.

But still...