Roland GR 700 - Roy Clarke & Jim Stafford

[lammie200]

Just ran across this and felt like sharing.

[Lovewerk]

Hi there

I’ve been a professional guitarist for many years, and yes - I’ve had experience with the Roland GR series, going back to the voltage-controlled GR-300 (it was a breakthrough, but note tracking from the early Roland pickup(s) was still in its infancy, and hard to nail down in use).

The GR-700 was, essentially, a Roland JX-3P (I owned one of those to play keyboards, as well as its 8-note polyphonic update, the JX-8P) adapted for 6-channel MIDI control - it really made its mark with its AM synthesis sound engine, and I used to use its orchestral strings and ‘bell sounds’ when comping - and it was monstrous. The lead sounds also worked well.

An expression pedal, and the sustain pedal on the unit itself would create pads and filter sweeps a la John McLaughlin and others like Pat Metheny, making beautifully layered sounds - leads with ‘hole fillers,’ etc. - though your feet would get quite a workout if you were standing, but when sitting down, it was able to work out quite well.

I used a G 707 guitar controller with the GR-700, and it was cumbersome to play - with limits to its tracking abilities - due to the then-massive AM synthesis sound engine working with the first GK series pickup mounted in the guitar. (notorious for being persnickety). I would have to make many adjustments to achieve certain sounds (percussive vs. pad/string sounds), but it was one helluva big step for guitarists. I enjoyed it immensely.

Moving forward (hopefully, with permission from moderators in this thread).

When I got my GR30 and later, my GR33 - the GK-2 and GK-2A pickups were a huge step in note tracking, and adjustments were easily done via the GR’s LED display - and, with (or without, for some examples) shims. I had a permanently-mounted GK-2A on my then-Hamer Mirage electric, with adjustment by screws.

Fast-forward to ‘now’ - guitar synthesis can be achieved with regular guitar pickups (as in the Boss line of guitar synths), but using the GK-3 series pickups will yield more accurate results. I heard John M’s album (was it at Royal Festival Hall, or Wembley? My memory isn’t as good as it used to be) where he played BEAUTIFULLY on acoustic guitar using a guitar synth. You know, I can remember things well from years ago - though I still have to go online to ‘jolt’ my recollection from time to time. I hope that I’ve contributed something useful in this thread, and thank you for reading.

[lammie200]

Cool info. I remember seeing this stuff evolve from a retail standpoint at Manny’s, Sam Ash, etc. on 48th St. in Manhattan back in the early ‘80s. I also John McLaughlin at the Bottom Line around then with the Roland guitar controller that had the pad mounted on a stalk that faced up at him. I am not an expert but it might have been a 303?

[MarkRhodes]

I didn't know Jim Stafford ("Wildwood Weed", "Spiders and Snakes", "My Girl Bill") could play that well.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I’ve been using Roland synths since they came out with the XV2020. I got a GR20 when they first came out, and I’ve gigged with it for years. Some of the sounds are great through a serious sound system, eg vibes, B3 w/Leslie, Harmon muted trumpet, e-pianos, saxophones, trombone, string pads, acoustic bass. Some are pretty lame, eg open trumpet and acoustic pianos.

Here’s a big band I put together in Audacity 20+ years ago to see if I could do it. It’s all synth except the electric guitar. The baritone sax was inspired by Doc Kupka

[Lovewerk]

Bang on. The 303 Metheny was released with less than 200 built - in my estimation, it was a far better controller than the 707 - the earlier synth pickup(s) were still made of metal at the time (better stability), but I was playing with a well-known Beach Music band that toured the East Coast, in my mid-twenties - and I thought to myself, “Hmm. The 707 looks cool and modern - good-looking for the ‘show’ aspect - and it should track better than my older setups.” That turned out to be BS. It had a made-of-plastic synth pickup, like the later GK-2 and GK-2A. I bought the GR-700 G707 setup at McFadyen Music in Myrtle Beach. It was used to create strings and pad textures, and to double with the sax player. The sax player used an older Hammond setup with a pitch rider in his mouthpiece, while I was using analog horn section patches when the keyboard player was also doubling with octaves - we used to call his right hand ‘The Claw’ - on a Korg Poly 6 synth, later a DW 8000 - while banging the bejesus out of a Fender Rhodes piano. For that time, our “horns” sounded quite big, and fairly realistic.

Truthfully, it was hard to find horn players that sang - and it kept our money levels “up” - much to the consternation of horn and woodwind players. With the advent of MIDI in 1983 (developed from Roland’s DCB [Digital Communications Bus] and Sequential Circuits back in ‘81-‘82), it enabled smaller bands to sound much bigger. Robert Moog introduced MIDI via Keyboard Magazine, October ‘82. In ‘83, Sequential shipped the Prophet 600 to keyboard players, and the MIDI journey in retail had begun. My Juno 60 (DCB) was replaced by a Roland Juno 106 in early ‘84; a bad trade off, as the 60 had better design, sound, and control.

Forgive my foray into MIDI history - I started music lessons on accordion at age 7, put my accordion away in ‘72, and went to guitar, first teaching myself on my brother’s Kay electric playing through a small Supro combo - oh yeah, there’s nothing like Class A tube ‘sag.’ My first real amp was a Guild - and the tube ‘sag’ didn’t stop, much to my bad feelings. His teacher snapped me up as a student, and before I knew it, I was playing “Teddy The Toad” by Neal Hefti, etc. I stayed with tube amps with a pre-CBS Fender Super Reverb. My love for keyboards started as well, and my father knew people at ARP in Newton, MA, and bought me a damaged-but-working 2600. Ah, Joe Zawinul…

Forgive my digressions - but guitars and MIDI are a great combination - the guitar has nuances and expression that enable players like ourselves the ability to play trumpet and sax solos. I did a great verse-length ‘sax’ solo on Moon Dance by Van Morrison - and I must confess, I use a Wilkinson ‘whammy bar’ on my guitar, and it gives perfect vibrato when playing the aforementioned ‘sax’ solo. Plus, with a good guitar synth, you can have the ability to pull off sine and sawtooth solos along with the guitar itself to ‘cut’ through the mix on stage and through the mains when playing ‘clean.’ Oyez, oyez, the Love one has spoken. Be well, and keep the music love alive as we listen to popular modern music with way too much Antares-licensed pitch correction.

[Lovewerk]

I didn't know Jim Stafford ("Wildwood Weed", "Spiders and Snakes", "My Girl Bill") could play that well.

Once again, you’re right - and forgive the delay in replying with your quote.

[Lovewerk]

I’ve been using Roland synths since they came out with the XV2020. I got a GR20 when they first came out, and I’ve gigged with it for years. Some of the sounds are great through a serious sound system, eg vibes, B3 w/Leslie, Harmon muted trumpet, e-pianos, saxophones, trombone, string pads, acoustic bass. Some are pretty lame, eg open trumpet and acoustic pianos.

Here’s a big band I put together in Audacity 20+ years ago to see if I could do it. It’s all synth except the electric guitar. The baritone sax was inspired by Doc Kupka

I didn't know Jim Stafford ("Wildwood Weed", "Spiders and Snakes", "My Girl Bill") could play that well.

Cool info. I remember seeing this stuff evolve from a retail standpoint at Manny’s, Sam Ash, etc. on 48th St. in Manhattan back in the early ‘80s. I also John McLaughlin at the Bottom Line around then with the Roland guitar controller that had the pad mounted on a stalk that faced up at him. I am not an expert but it might have been a 303?

I loved players like Joe Pass in earlier releases, Wes Montgomery in his use of octaves and fluidity, and we’ve all watched guitarists evolve (or devolve, depending on the way you see it). Allan Holdsworth blew me away on Jean-Luc Ponty’s Enigmatic Ocean, but his playing style wouldn’t suit guitar synthesis for the most part. Pat Metheny used a MuTron III back in the ‘70s, and of course, he went full tilt into guitar MIDI. Jim Stafford? He corrupted me with “Wildwood Weed.” Ah, the memories.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Forgive my digressions - but guitars and MIDI are a great combination - the guitar has nuances and expression that enable players like ourselves the ability to play trumpet and sax solos. I did a great verse-length ‘sax’ solo on Moon Dance by Van Morrison - and I must confess, I use a Wilkinson ‘whammy bar’ on my guitar, and it gives perfect vibrato when playing the aforementioned ‘sax’ solo. Plus, with a good guitar synth, you can have the ability to pull off sine and sawtooth solos along with the guitar itself to ‘cut’ through the mix on stage and through the mains when playing ‘clean.’ Oyez, oyez, the Love one has spoken. Be well, and keep the music love alive as we listen to popular modern music with way too much Antares-licensed pitch correction.

To play a synthesized / sampled instrument convincingly, you either have to be able to play the real thing with some facility or have somehow developed a full understanding of the nature and mechanics of the instrument. In my experience, most guiitar players who use synthesizers play every instrument as though it were a guitar, complete with bent notes, vibrato (finger, Bigsby etc). But every instrument has its own mechanical properties and limits. You can't bend notes on a keyboard or on vibes. The best sax patch in my GR20 has wonderful vibrato that ramps up on sustained notes - adding finger vibrato really makes it sound weird.

So you have to know what every patch and sample you use sounds like and how it behaves dynamically over time. Organ keys are not velocity or pressure sensitive - you control volume with the swell pedal, and every note is the exact same loudness at any given pedal setting from key press to release. Some wind patches have progressive vibrato, some have constant vibrato, and some have none. Some vibes patches have vibrato and others don't. Some electric piano patches are attack sensitive and sound different when you pluck harder, just as they do on the real instruments. Etc etc etc. You really have to study the manual and play around with them in order to learn enough to sound convincing.

And each instrument has its own palette of styles. Breathing is part of the sound and phrasing of wind instruments. The rapid runs in Jimmy Smith and Joey D style organ solos can sound weird when picked. They sound much more like they're played on an organ when played legato using a patch with no "percussion". Percussion is a tone added to the attack of nots on a Hammond - it's one of the characteristic sounds of the B-3. It's switchable on the organ, with hard and soft settings plus shorter and longer decays. The choice of percussion use and settings varies from player to player and is an integral part of each one's sound. Jimmy Smith used the soft-fast-third harmonic combination. Larry Young also used 3rd harmonic percussion, but Booker T used 2nd harmonic. I think Joey D and Jack McDuff played with percussion off.

One of the clasic organ "tricks" used by some jazz greats is the "palm slap" - they'd smack multiple keys at once for rhythmic effect during a solo. Another classic B-3 sound is the palm glide, where they'd slap a few notes and glide the palm of the hand along the edges of the keys for a glissando run. These are very hard to pull off on a guitar synth, but it can be done There are many similar subtleties to each and every instrument, and they really make a synthesized version sound more real. It's a gret idea to listen to and study the playing of all instruments. Don't limit yourself to just the guitar, and listen for the things that define each one's sound. It's instructive even if you don't use a synth - it will help you be a more accomplished guitar player and musician. But at the very least, if you're going to use a synth, learn enough about the instruments you're spoofing to sound right.

[Lovewerk]

To play a synthesized / sampled instrument convincingly, you either have to be able to play the real thing with some facility or have somehow developed a full understanding of the nature and mechanics of the instrument. In my experience, most guiitar players who use synthesizers play every instrument as though it were a guitar, complete with bent notes, vibrato (finger, Bigsby etc). But every instrument has its own mechanical properties and limits. You can't bend notes on a keyboard or on vibes. The best sax patch in my GR20 has wonderful vibrato that ramps up on sustained notes - adding finger vibrato really makes it sound weird.

So you have to know what every patch and sample you use sounds like and how it behaves dynamically over time. Organ keys are not velocity or pressure sensitive - you control volume with the swell pedal, and every note is the exact same loudness at any given pedal setting from key press to release. Some wind patches have progressive vibrato, some have constant vibrato, and some have none. Some vibes patches have vibrato and others don't. Some electric piano patches are attack sensitive and sound different when you pluck harder, just as they do on the real instruments. Etc etc etc. You really have to study the manual and play around with them in order to learn enough to sound convincing.

And each instrument has its own palette of styles. Breathing is part of the sound and phrasing of wind instruments. The rapid runs in Jimmy Smith and Joey D style organ solos can sound weird when picked. They sound much more like they're played on an organ when played legato using a patch with no "percussion". Percussion is a tone added to the attack of nots on a Hammond - it's one of the characteristic sounds of the B-3. It's switchable on the organ, with hard and soft settings plus shorter and longer decays. The choice of percussion use and settings varies from player to player and is an integral part of each one's sound. Jimmy Smith used the soft-fast-third harmonic combination. Larry Young also used 3rd harmonic percussion, but Booker T used 2nd harmonic. I think Joey D and Jack McDuff played with percussion off.

One of the clasic organ "tricks" used by some jazz greats is the "palm slap" - they'd smack multiple keys at once for rhythmic effect during a solo. Another classic B-3 sound is the palm glide, where they'd slap a few notes and glide the palm of the hand along the edges of the keys for a glissando run. These are very hard to pull off on a guitar synth, but it can be done There are many similar subtleties to each and every instrument, and they really make a synthesized version sound more real. It's a gret idea to listen to and study the playing of all instruments. Don't limit yourself to just the guitar, and listen for the things that define each one's sound. It's instructive even if you don't use a synth - it will help you be a more accomplished guitar player and musician. But at the very least, if you're going to use a synth, learn enough about the instruments you're spoofing to sound right.

You’re one hundred percent correct. I addended this entry to share more examples in hopes of showing others ‘tricks of the trade’ in MIDI. Though I’ve been educated in music, I still have my ears. They carried me through much of my music career. In my 60s, I thank goodness that I watched my stage volume and let the mains do the work - though I still have tinnitus from my medicines and being diabetic. If I were to play guitar on a vibes patch, for example, I would do exactly what you wrote. The instruments dictate how the different patches are played. The slap technique you mentioned I also used, as well as my second, third and fourth fingers when a triad was all that was needed.

On keyboard instrument patches (like pianos, organs, etc.) on the GR series, I wouldn’t use finger vibrato at all. Nor would I use a tremolo bar. Interestingly, on patch A52 on the GR 30, there’s a flamenco guitar with strings. Once again, no finger vibrato would be used there either; the vibrato sounds artificial on the guitar portion of the patch, and vibrato on strings would be completely wrong, as you would make that part of the patch sound one-dimensional with a ‘global’ vibrato going on top of an ‘entire’ string section.

On organs and certain keyboard sounds, ‘chromatic’ mode would be in place - which meant that every note struck would begin from its attack - so organ slides, acoustic piano and Rhodes piano slides could be achieved with some realism; however, if I used the GR in a sequencer, the sequencer would have to be in a mode similar to ‘poly omni’ in order to be able to handle the input of MIDI channels 1 through 6 by default (other instrument tracks would use MIDI channel 10 by default for drums, take your pick of MIDI channels 11-16 for other instrument tracks). At one point, I actually ran a light show off of MIDI channel 16, shifting the track backward to allow for the incandescent lights to work on time with the produced music, and - with the manipulation of velocity over the sliding notes we’re talking about, more realism could be achieved - but to be frank, I would have better luck with a keyboard controller without quantizing. Living in an event editor can be quite lengthy time wise.

I used the whammy bar a la Jeff Beck to achieve a sine wave vibrato over individual horns and woodwinds, more closely replicating the mouth formant of the sax, muted or solo trumpet, etc. Phil Woods was one of my idols, due his subtle dynamics and tonal purity.

Yes, you’re absolutely correct - and sharing things like that help clarify some of my scatological musings. I appreciate your entry. Your screen name sums up my musical life too.

[Lovewerk]

My guitar teacher DETESTED tremolo bars. It wasn’t until the 1980s that I’d begun using one, but for guitar synthesis, it can do a far better job replicating sax, trumpet, etc. Herb Alpert Brazil ‘66 and his later works (with lengthy delay fx) come to mind.

[Lovewerk]

Just ran across this and felt like sharing.

I didn't know Jim Stafford ("Wildwood Weed", "Spiders and Snakes", "My Girl Bill") could play that well.

Cool info. I remember seeing this stuff evolve from a retail standpoint at Manny’s, Sam Ash, etc. on 48th St. in Manhattan back in the early ‘80s. I also John McLaughlin at the Bottom Line around then with the Roland guitar controller that had the pad mounted on a stalk that faced up at him. I am not an expert but it might have been a 303?

Wow. I gave it a listen. Lester and Earl probably laughed like hell, and went to the still . Jim was playing a 707 controller, and his guitar controller looked like mine; same silver metallic color, it had the same shape, and that cumbersome neck stabilizer that you didn’t dare use as a handle. I was told by the guitar guy at McFadyen Music that “you need to handle this controller gently.”

And I did. To hear cross-mod flatulence in Dueling Banjos was hilarious! I should’ve mentioned that earlier. The long-winded one has spoken. Thanks for including me here.