Notes sound twice during recording (Focusrite 2i2 + Audacity)

[Jonah]

I am very bad (and often impatient) at software.

Recently I decided to record digital piano using Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 interface and simple Audacity program on PC.
First the sound is much worse that if I just play it out of the piano... but ok for this I probably know the reason and how to fix it.

But another problem every note sounds twice (like echo/delay) while recording (if I just play with this setup without recording it is ok, if I playbeck the recorded track it is also ok).
The output is set to Focustrite too and monitoring is on. So as much as I understand I hear the sound twice because first I see kind of immidiate through the monitor on Scarlett and and second is processed sound that comes beck from the computer. Or not?
If I change the output in Audacity to something else then it is ok (obviously because I hear the sound from Scarlett monitor only) but it is inconvinient becuase to playback and listen I have to switch again.

For guitar I used Guitar Pro and recorded simple tracks there directly - and I checked now and there are no problems like that.

What is also strange that when I only got Scarlett for the fist time I recorded both piano and guitar in Audacity, I did backing tracks and played over them and I had no serious latency and no such delay issue...

[orri]

You're correct, you're getting both "direct monitoring" and "software monitoring".

My Audacity has a setting called "silent monitoring" which just shows the meter so you can visually check your input level. Maybe you can install a newer Audacity or find a setting which suits better.

[fep]

If that keyboard has midi out thru a USB cable you can record with an instrument plugin and bypass the Focusrite. That's the way most do it including myself.

Here's a decent piano plugin that's free, Numa Player: Numa Player - Studiologic

[RJVB]

You're correct, you're getting both "direct monitoring" and "software monitoring".

From my 3.4x Audacity on Linux:



You probably have "Software playthrough of input" activated. That option is best left off during "production" recordings (esp. if you have hardware monitoring) because it adds a pointless additional CPU load.

The delay is because Audacity needs to record the incoming audio, buffer some of it for playback and then do the actual playback which probably incurs more delay in your computer's audio subsystem.

[RJVB]

If that keyboard has midi out thru a USB cable you can record with an instrument plugin and bypass the Focusrite.

That's not recording the (digital) piano, that's using it to play and record the "instrument plugin" you're using!

I'm assuming the OP has a digital piano that has a large bank of multiple samples of a real piano per key; do MIDI soundfonts even allow that kind of wealth of detail, flexibility etc?

[fep]

That's not recording the (digital) piano, that's using it to play and record the "instrument plugin" you're using!

I'm assuming the OP has a digital piano that has a large bank of multiple samples of a real piano per key; do MIDI soundfonts even allow that kind of wealth of detail, flexibility etc?

Yes they do, good VST plugins are often better than the digital piano as the soundfont samples (and/or models) can be more robust and have larger file sizes. A computer is typically much more powerful with a faster CPU and more memory than a hardware piano keyboard. But with that said, most couldn't tell the difference between a really high quality VST vs a really high quality and very expensive digital piano.

In the first 2:00 of this video is a comparison between a $150 vst and $3,000 digital piano

[Jonah]

Thank you everyone for your help.

I have quite basic digital piano (Casio Privia px-s1100), yes, Casio has a bad name but... I had quite limited budget and very specific requirements. And I checked a lot in the price range and above.

I played quite a few of good acoustic piano and digital pianos for me mostly are terrible, even expensive one.
Often 'the better' (more expensive) they are the more I feel that they try to imitate something.
That Casio has issues of course but if you can play already you can handle it. It is a compromise anyway.
But it has some convincing quality for me too: quite good resonance feel, sympathetic resonance, 'hammer'-attack feeling and sustain in sound after that which reminds more acoustic piano...
It was not even about the tone colour but more a feel of contorlability closer to the one I had on real pianos. (For example I did not like Roland in the same and bit higher price range though in theory it should be better).
And I play a lot of classical music so I need distinctive harmonic pronunciation - for this you need a decent sympathetic resonance imitaition and attack and pedal sustain control.

I tried VST pluggins now. But probably it requires lots of tuning up?
The sympathetic resonance is gone completely, no mute key pressure (however quietly I press it still sounds), and dynamics range is much more narrow, it sounds very digital... like fake sweet piano imitation.
Though it is fun with various electric modulated tones but it is another story.

also I am quite impatient with software.

I tried Addictive Keys because the basic package went free with Scarlett.
Numa could not find Midi input (it is blank menu) - I have to check it later

To be honest I struggle a lot with such stuff... I cannot record my lute properly too)))
Only electric guitar is ok (thanks to fep advice), but electric guitar is what it is really. it is electric.

What I need is just to record that basic digital piano the way it sounds in my headphones, why cannot they make it easy?
That casio allows to record to usb stick - I will try that...

[Jonah]

I managed to connect Numa.
Nice for free VST. At least ready presets seemed nicer than Addictive Keys.
But the latency is too big even in 'less latency mode'. And also strange response from the keys occasionally, like suddenly some keys do not respond.

Anyway it seems fun for noodling with electric sounds but when I need to play just some WTK or Schumann and record it quickly to send to a friend... it is too complicated.

[RJVB]

Yes they do, good VST plugins are often better than the digital piano as the soundfont samples (and/or models) can be more robust and have larger file sizes. A computer is typically much more powerful with a faster CPU and more memory than a hardware piano keyboard.

I don't doubt that, even ("smart")phones probably have more power CPUs these days.
But that's not always the issue. In a dedicated device like a digital piano that CPU has to do 1 thing only, and (in better ones) I would expect what are essentially additional CPUs dedicated to things like processing what's happening on the keyboard. I think you catch my drift, and I would be surprised if the various observations by Jonah have nothing to do with all that.

Oh, and since he seems to consider himself to be a technophobe it also seems quite likely his computer isn't the newest and was never the fastest. If so, it's more than likely struggling to keep up simply keeping the OS happy. Digital music devices simply don't have that problem; if they were ever "powerful enough" they will still be.

Anyway it seems fun for noodling with electric sounds but when I need to play just some WTK or Schumann and record it quickly to send to a friend... it is too complicated.

For that it is still hard to beat the old cassetterecorder or its modern equivalent, and it's exactly why I started looking for a simple recording device last year. Initially I wanted something that I can hook up to the nice Behringer UMC204HD I bought not long before, to dump the output from that to file rather than having to set up a sufficiently silent computer running Audacity next to me. Turns out those don't exist (in my budget at least) so I went with a field recorder.
I chose a Zoom H2N because it's very compact and has various stereo configurations that can be selected with a (puny, admittedly) physical selector switch. It gives very nice recordings that really reproduce the "impression in the room" quite well, at the touch of a button. And it is of course perfectly silent.

(WTK?)

[Jonah]

For that it is still hard to beat the old cassetterecorder or its modern equivalent, and it's exactly why I started looking for a simple recording device last year. Initially I wanted something that I can hook up to the nice Behringer UMC204HD I bought not long before, to dump the output from that to file rather than having to set up a sufficiently silent computer running Audacity next to me. Turns out those don't exist (in my budget at least) so I went with a field recorder.
I chose a Zoom H2N because it's very compact and has various stereo configurations that can be selected with a (puny, admittedly) physical selector switch. It gives very nice recordings that really reproduce the "impression in the room" quite well, at the touch of a button. And it is of course perfectly silent.

I have Zoom H5 recorder + Audacity which I use to record a baroque lute. After lots of experimenting I found some setup and settings which are more or less acceptable for me for amateur recordings just to share with friends.
The lutes are difficult to record, they do not sound at all as they do in reality. Ideally you need and open space outside with no walls or a room with no big reflections... and preferably at least two mics. It is too complex for me.

Recording digital piano through the mic... it did not work in my case unfortunately. It does not have enough presence through the speakers, and on record it sounds much more 'digital'

(WTK?)

Bach Wohltemperiete Klavier

[RJVB]

Recording digital piano through the mic... it did not work in my case unfortunately. It does not have enough presence through the speakers, and on record it sounds much more 'digital'

You may need to find a spot in your "studio" from where your piano sounds well (I suppose it has a playback function or else a number of built-in demos). Put the H5 in that location to record yourself. If you have the default configuration it has a stereo mic pair on it that should give you a faithful reproduction of what a human listener would hear on that location.
The same applies to the lute, in fact.

Both instruments will sound different to the player than they do to the audience, and if you're only used to hearing your keyboard via headphones that will be yet a different sound. One that you can probably also record directly if your H5 has an analog input (I suppose it must have one).

Bach Wohltemperiete Klavier

How's the harpsichord setting on your keyboard? O:-)

[Jonah]

You may need to find a spot in your "studio" from where your piano sounds well (I suppose it has a playback function or else a number of built-in demos). Put the H5 in that location to record yourself. If you have the default configuration it has a stereo mic pair on it that should give you a faithful reproduction of what a human listener would hear on that location.
The same applies to the lute, in fact.

Both instruments will sound different to the player than they do to the audience, and if you're only used to hearing your keyboard via headphones that will be yet a different sound. One that you can probably also record directly if your H5 has an analog input (I suppose it must have one).

Difficult topic... when you say ' If you have the default configuration it has a stereo mic pair on it that should give you a faithful reproduction of what a human listener would hear on that location.' it is a kind of reference to objective scientific parameters.
Though I do not deny it of course I think human perception is more complex (it is like saying a photocamera takes what a human being sees from this point - wel.. yes, if we put objectively and ask person to describe or compare what he sees with a photo. But if we take direct perception experience (without a reference to photo) it may turn out that a human being did not see what is on the photo, or on the contrary saw more.. and different human beings saw different things etc.).
Cameras also can be different but it is always an implication of objectivity principle - 'camera fixes not what human being sees but what really is' - though this 'really' is just another conception of reality of course.
It is more or less the same with sounds but especially with music which is an artistic work and can create lots of meanings that influence the perception very much.

Another point is purely technical, lute has complex acoustics and resonance and I think it is just impossible to make a tool that will grasp any sound equally 'well/realistically' (again conventionally realistically). Voice or piano could be caught respectively well and lute for example not...
So...
But I am not a pro of course. I had a couple of pro recording sessions. I had like for mics around myself and 2 mics on me and then a crazy few hours with addict music editor who excitedly moved the knobs up and down asking: how do you like this? and that? Until I totally lost the feeling of what I hear or need.

How's the harpsichord setting on your keyboard? O:-)

Not good)) Other instruments are really bad in that Casio. I had Kurzweil in the past and harpsichord was much better there. In some digital pianos or synths I actually prefer sometimes to use harpsichord tone because harmonic texture often sounds better thatn in a poor piano tone.

But overall I am not faithful historically authentic player... ))) I appreciate some harpsichordists but I really prefer to play at least Bach on piano. I really think it works well and even better on piano. I speak namely about Bach... some other baroque composers definitely benefit from harpsichord performance.

[RJVB]

Bach's music doesn't need any improvements... (not just) my opinion and a definitive one.

As to recordings: evidently we cannot reproduce what a listener experiences. That's also not the goal. As far as technology and simple faith in it is concerned, all that's required is to record and be able to reproduce the sound waves an ideal listener would be subjected to with enough fidelity that a human listener will have a similar enough experience as during the live event. Some recording engineers/companies do that with complicated microphone set-ups and 5:1 (or even 7:1) content published on bluray discs. Other just use a single binaural microphone pair.

Your H5 should give a DIY result comparable to the latter approach, but as I said, if you only ever listen to the headphone output you should just record that. Get or make one of these splitters that allows 2 people to listen (over headphones) to a single source and the appropriate cable to feed the signal you're hearing into your H5, set the recording level and press record.

[Jonah]

Bach's music doesn't need any improvements... (not just) my opinion and a definitive one.

It is not about improvement of the music, it is about expressive possibilities that work for me personally. With the means of piano i hear the semantic elements of Bach's music more controlled and expressive during performance.
And there is a reason why I say specifically about Bach for the period music. His keyboard music is really - a klavier. They work on any keyboard to certain degree but differently... but still they work.
And his keyboard music contains so many instrumental connotations... even little preludes for klavier have a trio sonata, an organ prelude, a mini-concert allegro, a vocal arioso, a choire etc.
His keyboard music is really often a reflection of all his did for any instruments, I feel like keyboard for him was kind of practical score: score because of the things I wrote above, practical - because it is still keyboard music in practical sense.

(for example his violine or cello works are much more idiomatic... nevertheless people play then on different instruments too).

this is why I think I prefer piano for Bach.

reproduce the sound waves an ideal listener would be subjected to with enough fidelity that a human listener will have a similar enough experience as during the live event. Some recording engineers/companies do that with complicated microphone set-ups and 5:1 (or even 7:1) content published on bluray discs. Other just use a single binaural microphone pair.

Your H5 should give a DIY result comparable to the latter approach, but as I said, if you only ever listen to the headphone output you should just record that. Get or make one of these splitters that allows 2 people to listen (over headphones) to a single source and the appropriate cable to feed the signal you're hearing into your H5, set the recording level and press record.

Thank you, I must just give it more try