Eliminating the Metronome for technical studies?

[pamosmusic]

I better keep doing both, or my chops will fall apart!
I wasn't referring to the Romaine comment, I was referring to you're suggestion to have the metronome playing on 2&4, only 4, or on one every 4 beats.

Well the natural extension of that would be less metronome, e.g. what Romain was doing.

Miles Okazaki does this thing where he’ll play a bebop tune with the metronome clicking only on the third eighth note of the measure. Or clicking every five beats in a 4/4 tune. There’s a lot to do with a metronome before we toss it in the trash.

Which again it sounds like you won’t be tossing it in the trash.

[Ukena]

You sound like you know a lot about using MS. I've written about 75 big band charts on MS, but don't know how to send them to people. You know how to do that? I've had a lot of them played by 'real' bands I'm in, but when I asked that German band how to send it to them, they told me in German:
"You vill drop them off at the office."
Yeah, right, and you vill fly me to Germany from NYC!

Those files that end with .mscz are native Musescore files. When you open one in Musescore, if you choose to export it, it doesn't replace the original file, it adds a new file to the folder you choose (in the save dialog). I've got hundreds of .mscz scores, and I try to save any exported PDFs in the same folder (sometimes one just works too fast to remember to choose the correct folder).

In the latest version of Musescore, when you select Export under the File menu, you get a choice of file format. If you choose PDF (which is what you want), you then have the options to:
choose the resolution (360 is good)
have each part in a separate file, or all parts combined in one file
Open destination folder on export – this is a good box to check, since you can easily find where you put the PDF.

[BreckerFan]

I'm in agreement, my inclination is to say no. Practicing with midi is not a good way to develop human sounding time feel. It sounds like you're working on things that are quite fast, but I still think it would be better to be generating your own time and keeping yourself honest with a metronome than playing the time dictated to you by midi. If the exercise is so fast it's hard to tell if it's correct, slow it down and lock your internal time feel in more, and then bring it back up to speed, you'll get more out of it that way anyway.

That being said, if through your practice you feel like there's something that doing it would give you that you can't get otherwise, then maybe it's the right path to take.

[sgcim]

Regarding technical exercises (rather than solo transcriptions etc), my inclination is to say no.

Play with a metronome. When you are comfortable, take out half the beats. Move the click to other beats.

Rinse and repeat

Playing with a track is fine at first but it’s easy to use it as a crutch. If your aim is to develop that’s unhelpful. Imo

Usually with exercises a major goal is evenness. Metronomes are great for putting that stuff under the microscope (they are also not the alpha and omega.)

It's definitely not a crutch. I used to play this exercise at 320bpm with a metronome, but because it falls on a different part of the four parts of the beat every time you finish the 59 notes, it's impossible to tell if you're executing it correctly. That's why I tried this experiment. It gives you an idea of playing it with superhuman evenness. I realized I had to slow it down to 220bpm to be able to play it over and over again evenly.
It's the metronome that's the crutch.

[sgcim]

Those files that end with .mscz are native Musescore files. When you open one in Musescore, if you choose to export it, it doesn't replace the original file, it adds a new file to the folder you choose (in the save dialog). I've got hundreds of .mscz scores, and I try to save any exported PDFs in the same folder (sometimes one just works too fast to remember to choose the correct folder).

In the latest version of Musescore, when you select Export under the File menu, you get a choice of file format. If you choose PDF (which is what you want), you then have the options to:
choose the resolution (360 is good)
have each part in a separate file, or all parts combined in one file
Open destination folder on export – this is a good box to check, since you can easily find where you put the PDF.

Thanks, mucho!

[pamosmusic]

It's definitely not a crutch. I used to play this exercise at 320bpm with a metronome, but because it falls on a different part of the four parts of the beat every time you finish the 59 notes, it's impossible to tell if you're executing it correctly. That's why I tried this experiment. It gives you an idea of playing it with superhuman evenness. I realized I had to slow it down to 220bpm to be able to play it over and over again evenly.
It's the metronome that's the crutch.

Youre playing 16ths at 320?

Mr Holdsworth? Is that you?

[sgcim]

Youre playing 16ths at 320?

Mr Holdsworth? Is that you?

160, metronome click on 1 and 3.

[pamosmusic]

160, metronome click on 1 and 3.

Probably sounds like a humming bird behind your ear

EDIT: wait do you mean you’re playing 8th notes at 320, with the metronome clicking on 1 and 3 so they sound like 16ths against the meteonome?

Or you’re setting the metronome for 160 and playing eight notes in between every click?

[sgcim]

Probably sounds like a humming bird behind your ear

EDIT: wait do you mean you’re playing 8th notes at 320, with the metronome clicking on 1 and 3 so they sound like 16ths against the meteonome?

Or you’re setting the metronome for 160 and playing eight notes in between every click?

I'm just playing 16th notes at 160bpm, or 8th notes at 320.

[Christian Miller]

Right so the question was in fact ‘should I play this highly specific exercise about which you know nothing with a Musescore or with a metronome?’

Ok, I daresay you are right.

Quite curious about the exercise now.

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[pamosmusic]

I'm just playing 16th notes at 160bpm, or 8th notes at 320.

Ooooooooooooooooooh.

Yeah okay. So taking Christians point, I still wouldn’t ditch the metronome.

Something I find very useful, is taking an abstraction and making it concrete. Like rather than asking yourself “am I in time right now,” you might consider identifying some distinctive places where you can tell if certain physical actions are locked together.

Ive been doing this thing lately where I play triplets at 100 with the metronome on 1 and 3. So that’s metronome at 50, and I’m playing six notes each pulse. With the rub being that I’m playing three note sequences and accenting in *fours*. So for a while it was impossible for me to tell if I was “in time.” But what I could tell was if the first of every three accents landed with the click. After a week or so, I’ve stared to learn what that cross rhythm sounds and feels like and I can tell if I’m “in time.”

[pamosmusic]

Another thing I’ll say.

I have this very talented 16yo classical student and the lessons are online. He wears headphones, which is important because when he plays the metronome on his computer, I can’t hear it.

So there was this brief phase where we were switching a lot between scales in eighth notes and scales and sixteenth notes, and when I would halve the tempo and tell him to play sixteenths, he’d pretend to change it but actually leave it, because he knew I couldn’t hear the click. So he’s playing the same notes I asked and at the same speed as I asked but he was technically not playing the subdivision and tempo that I asked.

I caught him every. single. time.

So when we’re taking about “making your own time,” we’re not just talking about placing the notes in the correct place, we’re talking about making the pulse audible to the listener. Which midi doesn’t do.

When people say Charlie Parker was rhythmically exceptional, they’re not saying his rhythms were all that interesting. Sure he played interesting rhythms, but still mostly eighth notes with some triplets, or the double time of that. The exceptional part was his ability to use accents and articulation, along with those rhythms, to make the time do whatever he wanted it to do with total freedom.

[Bop Head]

Another thing I’ll say.

I have this very talented 16yo classical student and the lessons are online. He wears headphones, which is important because when he plays the metronome on his computer, I can’t hear it.

So there was this brief phase where we were switching a lot between scales in eighth notes and scales and sixteenth notes, and when I would halve the tempo and tell him to play sixteenths, he’d pretend to change it but actually leave it, because he knew I couldn’t hear the click. So he’s playing the same notes I asked and at the same speed as I asked but he was technically not playing the subdivision and tempo that I asked.

I caught him every. single. time.

So when we’re taking about “making your own time,” we’re not just talking about placing the notes in the correct place, we’re talking about making the pulse audible to the listener. Which midi doesn’t do.

When people say Charlie Parker was rhythmically exceptional, they’re not saying his rhythms were all that interesting. Sure he played interesting rhythms, but still mostly eighth notes with some triplets, or the double time of that. The exceptional part was his ability to use accents and articulation, along with those rhythms, to make the time do whatever he wanted it to do with total freedom.

I'd get a bluetooth speaker in order to amplify the click.

[Christian Miller]

Doesn’t sound like he needs one bra


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[Bop Head]

Doesn’t sound like he needs one bra


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OK misunderstanding. But aren't there ways to share computer audio e.g. via zoom? I am not very experienced in that field yet but I have taken part in some of the free webinars by Shan Verma aka JazzSkills and he is always playing his digital piano sound and talking over it via mic.

[pamosmusic]

OK misunderstanding. But aren't there ways to share computer audio e.g. via zoom? I am not very experienced in that field yet but I have taken part in some of the free webinars by Shan Verma aka JazzSkills and he is always playing his digital piano sound and talking over it via mic.

Metronome needs to be on the side of the person playing it. No matter the technology, there will be some tiny bit of latency that makes it sound off.

But also Christians thing. Don’t need to hear it. It’s there for him and I can tell if he’s not using it.

[Bop Head]

Metronome needs to be on the side of the person playing it. No matter the technology, there will be some tiny bit of latency that makes it sound off. [...]

Assuming you wanted to hear the metronome together with the students playing, neglecting this:

[...]But also Christians thing. Don’t need to hear it. It’s there for him and I can tell if he’s not using it.

wouldn't his metronome app and his playing over mic or soundcard have the same latency for you and sound correct (assuming he is playing in time of course) for you, only arriving a tiny bit later at your speakers resp. headphones?

[pamosmusic]

Assuming you wanted to hear the metronome together with the students playing, neglecting this:



wouldn't his metronome app and his playing over mic or soundcard have the same latency for you and sound correct (assuming he is playing in time of course) for you, only arriving a tiny bit later at your speakers resp. headphones?

yeah it’s fine if it’s on their side of the call. But I don’t want to dictate to a student what equipment they should have. My job to work with what they have.

also he could just unplug the headphones but I assume he uses them for a reason

[sgcim]

Right so the question was in fact ‘should I play this highly specific exercise about which you know nothing with a Musescore or with a metronome?’

Ok, I daresay you are right.

Quite curious about the exercise now.

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It's an exercise that Danny Gatton used, and it was so difficult to play, that even he kept messing it up and yelling out curse words on the instructional video he did.
Basically, it's just a five NPS 'chromatic' scale from Low E to G# on the 4th fret of the high E string, and back down again, without repeating any of the notes IN THE EXERCISE -ever.I emphasize that it's not a real chromatic scale, and that one note is repeated because they're part of the exercise.
He designed it to give both the LH and RH a "good workout" at the same time, because if you do it right, you use only alt. picking.
The problem is you can't do it in perpetuity, because it never starts again on the downbeat for a long time. I posted it on another forum, and some mathematical 'genius' said it would take 20 repetitions for that to happen, and he presented his mathematical formula, which was wrong.
Anther guy said you could repeat it once and only go up to the G natural instead of the G#, but I told him that would be missing the whole point of the exercise. Then someone said it was too hard, and the topic died.
I tried to write it out on paper, but after too many repetitions, I got the idea to write it out in MuseScore, and use copy and paste to write it out in notation about 50x on the solo classical guitar format they have, because I still feel like I'm playing in a 007 movie when I hear their 'jazz' sound.

So I counted out the number of repetitions it would take to wind up back on 'ONE', and it was nine times.
Then I tried to play it along with the recording (I don't have a MIDI set up on my guitar, so I'm just playing it through an amp) and I press play, and all of a sudden John Williams on steroids blasts it away in perfectly EVEN sixteenth notes at 160bpm!
I give up immediately and put the tempo slow enough so that I can keep up with UBER John Williams, and repeat it again and again, and the experiment is a success.
After doing this a few days I find I'm able to play a Klose` clarinet exercise that always gave me trouble at a certain place. I'm also able to play Donna Lee at 320bpm again and other things that I used to have trouble with, but I haven't put them into MuseScore cause I don't want to playlike that Italian robot played Donna Lee, Matteo whatever his name is.
In fact, I go back to the metronome, because it's just a PITA to switch back and forth.

I'm of the belief that while things like metronomes (which I've been using every day for every note of my practice sessions for the last 50 years) click tracks, drum machines etc... are good practice tools, real music of any kind (except EDM and and hip-hop, which are garbage, IMHO) contains nuances in rhythm that are used for expression, and these things make that impossible.
The record producer John Simon (Blood Sweat and Tears, The Band, Janis Joplin, etc... ) is proudest of the fact that he never used a drum machine or even a click track on ANY of the hundreds of records he's produced in his over 60 years as a record producer.

[Christian Miller]

So…. That was perhaps a little more context than I would consider strictly necessary for ease of comprehension.

So, am I missing something or it’s a one finger per fret digital exercise in open position going from low E to a G# on the high E string, alternate picked?

Is that the whole thing?

So that is 59 notes. Ok …

So yeah if you played a 60 note pattern you’d end up on the same beat. Play this 59 note pattern and it phases an 8th or 16th note (depending) earlier each time. in 8ths and it would take 8 repetitions to get back to 1. 16 reps for 16th notes.

Yeah tricky. It’s essentially a long phasing cycle against 4/4.

There are ways you could work on it with a metronome, and there’s techniques like Konakol you could use to bootstrap up to doing that but I wonder if you just worked on the phasing with the top note (for example a click 1 steps through G#, G, F#, F, E, etc) whether it might not just click after a while. I’d have to try it. I suspect it’s not that simple.

I’d also divide up the challenges of the exercise. For instance, making sure the alternate picking was dialled in and I was certain of which type of stroke I was starting each string with (it will be inverted between odd and even reps right?) before attempting it in time.

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[Christian Miller]

OK misunderstanding. But aren't there ways to share computer audio e.g. via zoom? I am not very experienced in that field yet but I have taken part in some of the free webinars by Shan Verma aka JazzSkills and he is always playing his digital piano sound and talking over it via mic.

Yeah that’s a one way thing. Latency is a problem going two ways.


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[BreckerFan]

I guess what are you trying to get out of the exercise? It seems like one that's aimed at mechanical rather than musical goals. Which is valid of course. But if that's the case I wonder if it would be more effective to repeat a note and remove the rhythmic challenge? Or if you want to work the rhythmic challenge, slow it down. For me I'm struggling to see the advantage that playing it along with midi gives. If you can play it cleanly along with midi, you should be able to play it cleanly with a metronome too.

[sgcim]

I guess what are you trying to get out of the exercise? It seems like one that's aimed at mechanical rather than musical goals. Which is valid of course. But if that's the case I wonder if it would be more effective to repeat a note and remove the rhythmic challenge? Or if you want to work the rhythmic challenge, slow it down. For me I'm struggling to see the advantage that playing it along with midi gives. If you can play it cleanly along with midi, you should be able to play it cleanly with a metronome too.

Yeah, purely mechanical. Like Bird said, "you gotta master the instrument". It don't play itself. I don't wanna wind up getting a review in the NY Times of a concert that Bill Frisell gave on the acoustic guitar(before all the hype) that said, "He sounded like a beginner on the guitar".
As a "Brecker Fan" you're probably aware that he went to music summer camp, with Phil Woods as his mentor, where they actually worked on sax technique. And later on when he had technical problems, he used to call up my friend, the late Drew Francis, and ask for his advice on how to play difficult stuff on the instrument.
You can't take out a note as I said before, because then you're not playing the exercise as Gatton intended it to be played, hence you're not getting the technical facility that he intended it to give you. If you take away the "rhythmic challenge"

But as far as the metronome; the steady click can give you the illusion that you can catch up on the 16ths at 160bpm without you realizing that you're not actually cutting it, and you should slow it down. I took another look at the Gatton tape, and he does say that you should never try to play the exercise fast, and he demonstrated the fastest he could play it, and it was way slower than what I was trying to build it up to be. He then suggested that you could play it faster if you cheated and instead of starting off on each string with an opposite stroke than you played the last string with, you start off each string with a down stroke and it's much easier to play.

But my main point is that eliminating any click whatsoever, and playing it with midi alone seems to take away the 'crutch' that a click gives you, and might build up a kind of internal metronome better than working with the metronome's 'crutch'.
Trying it on a tune like "Freedom Jazz Dance" which I'm sure I can play with a metronome, might be a good tune to check that THEORY out on.

[Christian Miller]

They do say that a bad review is the real sign you made it, because if you’re nobody and they don’t like what you are doing, you won’t get a review.

So on should I suppose aspire to a critical panning haha. If no one can hate your playing, do you really have a voice?


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[Mick-7]

It's an exercise that Danny Gatton used

Do you have the precise exercise written out? If so, please share it, I'm not clear about it.