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Just wondering if the players on this forum like to feel 8ths as swung, and if so, at what tempo do you straighten up the 8th feel? I guess I'm talking bop, hard bop and even "post" bop...
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06-30-2011 08:21 AM
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If the feel is swing... the tempo doesn't matter, obviously technique could get in the way, but that's a different issue.
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I tend to play everything pretty straight, in a Martino-Mike Stern fashion, and use accents and phrasing to make the line swing. This works for me, but lots of guys use different approaches to swinging, like laying back on the second 8th note or accenting the up beats a little bit to drive the beat forward.
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I'll try to be more clear, if the feel is swing, and you are playing single line 8ths and play with triplet 8th feel at say 200BPM, do you, as you get to quicker tempos, retain that triplet 8th swing feel in the single line 8ths, or do they tend to straighten into more even 8ths? If you had to guess, is it , rather than say 66/33, more like 55/45? Or even 50/50?
When I transcribe and hence slow down things like Parker, the 8th notes are not far off sounding even when the speeds are approaching 300BPM. But the rest of the band behind him are definitely playing with regular swing feel.
I also notice with my own playing that I start to lose the swung, uneven 8th feel when it gets to "tempo de bitch". I suppose I gradually straighten them and end up pretty straight by around 270. Just wondering if others notice the same thing?
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the faster the tempo the straighter your 8th notes have to become without you simulating the tempo dragging. 250 is getting up there but anything over 280 you need to play pretty straight 8th notes and let the pull against the drummer and bass quarter note creates the swing pulse.
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sure, if you're charlie parker.
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I agree with Jake H. I just did a little testing with the nome. I feel like I can hear the slightly separated 8ths at 250, 60, but 280 it starts to straighten out in my head.
At faster tempos some people make the 8ths VERY straight. It really is a stylistic choice to some extent, but technique definitely is a limiting factor.
I've noticed that who I'm playing with is the biggest difference in how much I swing my 8ths notes. I generally just adjust to what other people are doing, as everybody does it a little differently. Seems the more modern feels generally have straighter sounding "swing."
Some people affect the 8th notes so much I feel like I'm always going KAKLUNK KAKLUNK KAKLUNK to stay in time with them.
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I hate to say this... but playing 8ths at 250 is not that fast and you should be able to swing them very naturally. How heavy of a swing feel are you talking about... I know most don't want to get into technique, but that's the only problem... At any tempo... how many steady 8ths can anyone take. Swing is a feel... not a mechanical method of making music. I play gigs all the time where the tempos are in the 240 range... and we swing like crazy. We should make a sample track , rhythm or blues changes and play over to hear the differences between light swing and down and dirty heavy swing... and then straight 8ths.... if some one makes the track I'll gladly record over. Hell, I'll try and get a recording of my gig tonight, a B-3 trio... we'll be at 250 most of the night, lots of Wes tunes... Reg
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Cool, I'd love to hear how much swing you can squeeze in there at say 280+. As my technique improves, I'm wondering if it's even a desirable thing to swing the 8ths hard at fast tempos. To experiment, I played with "normal" swing feel at 160 and doubled the playback speed. It sounded terrible! Makes me wonder if it's just a question of limited technique that make people straighten up at quick tempos, or whether they do it because it sounds less "cramped" that way?...
Originally Posted by Reg
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I think the latter, but it does depend on tempo. 250 is different than 320 for sure. Vic Juris said he thinks of "uptempo" as starting at 250, meaning 250 is just the bare minimum to be considered "up."
I was trying to find a clip as an example of something in that maybe 240-260 range, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head - seems like it's more conventional to record at 180-240 or 280-320, but I can't think of anything in the middle. Would be great if somebody could find some clips.
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Most of the groups I play with aren't technically advanced enough to swing over 180bpm. I'm doing a pit band right now and a clarinet complained saying we shouldn't be swinging the eighths if we are going more than 160...
For me, if the feel is there, then it should be hard not to swing it. Listening to the rhythm section should dictate your swing or lack of. But, in the above situation, I'm just playing what I'm told (the song in question was a ragtime number and it hurts me to hear it straight).
~DB
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This is really food for thought!
I find it hard to really tell if the difference is in the accent or dynamic phrasing or if it is actually swing.
I'll be doing some exploring
Jens
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Bird could still swing at 350.
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yes, but he wasn't playing uneven 8ths at that speed...
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Ouch!! This is interesting reading for me .... before reading this thread, I thought that how many notes per beat(second), or how fast tempo can you play technically, triplet or not ... ( lets call the triplet, here the "swing"... in tempo 250+, it is close to it ) ... was the issue for metal guitar players
Peace to everyone in this planet.
T.
P.S. I know what is the difference of triplet and swing feel
Last edited by toomasvanem; 07-03-2011 at 10:50 PM.
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I agree with Reg, swing is a feel not a mechanical method.
I think there are enough bands and players that 'swing' that don't technically 'swing'...think ECM...
Not to mention sticking to the heavy triplet feel type swing can become pretty hoaky in the hands of amateurs (which I guess I am one of...)
To paraphrase Ella: Swing just...is...
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"Shredder, shredder!" the mob cried, chasing the guitarist into the forest with their torches. "You can not live in our village! There is no place for such discussion of fast tempos and pick technique! We are not metal heads and your kind are not welcome here!" Originally Posted by toomasvanem
Ouch!! This is interesting reading for me .... before reading this thread, I thought that how many notes per beat(second), or how fast tempo can you play technically, triplet or not ... ( lets call the triplet, here the "swing"... in tempo 250+, it is close to it ) ... was the issue for metal guitar players
Peace to everyone in this planet.
T.
P.S. I know what is the difference of triplet and swing feel
"Please, I beg of you," the guitarist replied while being backed against the trees, "I am not a metal musician! I play jazz, just as all of you! My guitar is neither pointy nor solid, my strings are thick and un-bendable, I swear it's the truth!"
"Then why, heathen, do you discuss such blasphemy as speed and athletic agility to play what we know to be intelligent, emotional music? This is music that is above such childish considerations - music that is based on communication, rhythm and harmony, not egotistical displays of virtuosity!"
"I know, I know, it's just that sometimes the drummer calls the tempos."
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I might quote that somewhere...
Jens
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"Jeepers! So, you cats never heard of Charlie Parker, Johnny Griffin, Clifford Brown, Oscar Peterson or George Benson? Sheesh, who wants to live in your village anyway?" Originally Posted by JakeAcci
.. and with that the young man fled as fast as he could, 360 strides per minute... (Art Tatum would be proud)
Last edited by princeplanet; 07-04-2011 at 12:41 PM.
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Their speed was incidental, apparently.
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Their speed was quite apparent, incidentally.
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Anyways, slowing down Lionel Hampton or Oscar P. reveals a greater unevenness in fast 8ths than much of Parker. The samples are too limited to be sure of anything naturally, but the "swing" factor that distinguishes different players on certain instruments from different eras is interesting. I wonder if there has ever been any statistical analysis. Some egghead somewhere, I feel certain, has written a thesis on this very subject. No?
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You guys might be too wrapped up in small details and missing the music... the feel of the phrase is what the players are after. If they wanted every detail,( two beats worth of 8ths or 16th), to be the focus of the feel... I'm sure they could or would have. But generally when your focus is the phrase... the actual notes vary as far as swing factor because of how one gives balance to the phrase. And eventually the balance of the solo... Maybe you should be looking for the variations or how the variations of swing factor are patterned, methods of balance. What % of a phrase needs to have what swing factor to feel as though the entire phrase feels right... naturally swinging for a certain tempo... is there a difference between a shuffle and swing... as far as how we balance the feel... Sorry... this is not going anywhere ... There must be a balance between how much time one spends on discussion and playing or practice. What are the factors for determining the balance... please don't take me serious
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What a great story you wrote! Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I don't play jazz, and my guitar is just a tool for creating music, and yes I can bend strings in tune, and have decent overdrive sound, and can control my vibrato, have some basic knowledge how to use modes ...., and I can communicate with other musicians in my band rhythmically and our music is also based on harmony... and not egotistical displays of virtuosity!... as you clever minded person pointed
What is wrong if drummer calls the tempos,... it is part of the communication, with the musicians...don't you think...
Or you JakeAcci prefer to show off your egoistical, improvisational skills that rest of the band has to follow!
Cheers,
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and Reg is right... you guys are missing the music
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Raney and Abersold, great interview.
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