Setting the metronome on the second and fourth beats

[vance h]

I have heard from a number of sources that it is helpful to practice with the metronome set on the second and fourth beats (e.g., when playing scales, arpeggios,etc.), and I have taken this advice. Often the explanation is given that this corresponds with the drummer's high hat. This still leaves me wondering how this should influence my playing. Should I be accenting these beats? Or be more fluid or casual about picking on the down beats, and just be sure to come home to roost on 2 and 4? Hope this question makes sense, and thanks for your help answering it.

[kris]

I use it that way:
1.put slow tempo on metronome in ex: 60
2.count 2,4/like half notes/ exactly with beat in this tempo 60
3. count 1 2 3 4/you have to be carefull-now you count quater notes/ - now you are in 120 tempo.
1 and 3 is between 2 and 4.it is work like loop.
May be this help.

[theentertainer]

It's good to use the metronome, but I would advise you to download Band In Box for practicing songs. You can put the chords of the tune in the application and then play the melody and you can also improvise over the changes. It works really well beacause it feels like you're playing with a band. Have a nice day!
Phil

[Dad3353]

...how this should influence my playing...

Good afternoon, Vance...

I'm not sure that the idea is to 'influence your playing', as such. Many styles of music have their own particular 'pulse', 'beat' or 'swing'; this little trick is mostly to get your ears used to the feeling of this style. As long as you're playing on time, and musically, there is nothing magic about the 2/4. A drummer will very often have the hi-hat playing there (but not always; we often 'double up' the hats, playing on every beat, to accelerate the 'pulse'...). It's just a 'signature' beat to have subconsciously running. It won't matter much if you're playing dry scales and such anyway, but will be much more useful playing rhythm or solo, to promote phrasing coherent with the drums.
Subject to contradiction and/or correction from others; hope this helps...

[kris]

It is great way to practice/2,4 beat/...more swinging notes you can play.
Good with swing and be-bop tunes.
For bossa ,fusion etc I prefer straight 1234...
Practsing only with metronome it is great ear trainig also and you can get perfect time.

[fep]

+1 to what Kris wrote.

Also, beats on 2 & 4 gives you less metronome information and requires you to keep more of the time yourself.

Check out this video:

[jtizzle]

It's good to use the metronome, but I would advise you to download Band In Box for practicing songs. You can put the chords of the tune in the application and then play the melody and you can also improvise over the changes. It works really well beacause it feels like you're playing with a band. Have a nice day!
Phil

I'll have to disagree. People who use BIAB or any form of playalongs tend to develop a need for it's use. I like to call it BIAB-itis. Overusing playalongs makes you depend on the music to get to the changes rather than really outlining all the changes in your line playing. It's much better to comp for yourself through a recorder and play it back, and play to that. You're learning two things at a time through this method.

As far as the 2 + 4 thing, in a standard jazz setting, it helps your swing feel since it does emulate the hi-hat. When you play with the metronome like that, you swing naturally, even if you don't notice it.
It also helps your time feel, since you're not hearing all the quarter notes, you have to make it be there, on time, on your own. Some people take this to the next level and set their metronome to 40, but every click is thought of as the downbeat of a new bar, so you're actually playing at quarter note = 160 if you're at 40. Some metronomes, you can mute some clicks throughout the beat, so you can even make it crazier such as making it play only one click every two or four bars.

[theentertainer]

I'll have to disagree. People who use BIAB or any form of playalongs tend to develop a need for it's use. I like to call it BIAB-itis. Overusing playalongs makes you depend on the music to get to the changes rather than really outlining all the changes in your line playing. It's much better to comp for yourself through a recorder and play it back, and play to that. You're learning two things at a time through this method.

Yeah I hear you and you`re right but there is also another trick you can do with Band in a Box: you can mute all the instruments after you`ve practiced the changes and in the end you can see if you followed them correctly. My guitar teacher always says that you should hear the changes in your head so consequently you should be able to improvise without harmony being physically played.

[kris]

Band in the Box is a very good software for musicians...I think everybody know that.IT IS LIKE A BIG METRONOME WITH BIG POSSIBILITIES.

[fep]

I'll have to disagree. People who use BIAB or any form of playalongs tend to develop a need for it's use. I like to call it BIAB-itis. Overusing playalongs makes you depend on the music to get to the changes rather than really outlining all the changes in your line playing. It's much better to comp for yourself through a recorder and play it back, and play to that. You're learning two things at a time through this method.

As far as the 2 + 4 thing, in a standard jazz setting, it helps your swing feel since it does emulate the hi-hat. When you play with the metronome like that, you swing naturally, even if you don't notice it.
It also helps your time feel, since you're not hearing all the quarter notes, you have to make it be there, on time, on your own. Some people take this to the next level and set their metronome to 40, but every click is thought of as the downbeat of a new bar, so you're actually playing at quarter note = 160 if you're at 40. Some metronomes, you can mute some clicks throughout the beat, so you can even make it crazier such as making it play only one click every two or four bars.

How familiar are you with BIAB?

You can mute any of the instruments or just play with a click.

You can mute any of the measures you want.

How about playing with only a walking bass?

How about playing with only a soloist?

How about playing with only a drum track that only plays a measure every 16 measures?

How about just bass and you record your own comping into BIAB (just a few mouse clicks to start recording) and then solo over the Bass and your own comping? (And then you play it back to critique your own soloing).

The possibilities seem endless.

My 'itis' is I play solo guitar (with no accompaniment) too much. I very much am an outline the changes player. That's what I like to do the most and what is most comfortable. It's more difficult for me to play with accompaniment whether it's live or BIAB.

[vance h]

Thanks for the quick and helpful answers to my question. Interesting that the Emily Remler dvd came up, since I came across it a few days ago for the first time, and it was this that inspired me to start up with the metronome on two and four again (I had fallen off that wagon). And yes, using Band in the Box is part of my practice routine. Good to get confirmation that I am on the right track.

[frankmaurer]

When you have the metronome on 2 & 4 do you tap your foot on 1 & 3 ? I saw this mentioned in a book by Roi Ben-Hur and a video of Barry Harris. I found it extremly difficult to do (especially playing quater note triplets against it)
Anyone else tried that?

[randalljazz]

yup, pretty much all day...after a while you don't need to think about, it just happens...like on the recordings, bass plays 1 & 3, hat or snare plays 2 & 4 (more or less)...

[MarkRhodes]

I've been doing this a lot lately. In fact, I think I spend more time on this than any other element of my practice regimen. I started doing it to help my swing comping and it has done that. It's also tightened up my "Charleston" comping. It's taken a bit more work for use with long lines / patterns. I rush sometimes and get off beat, but the more I do it, the more quickly I recover when I go astray and the less often I go astray.

Question: in one of the Hal Galper videos floating about the forum, Hal says that beats one and three are "resolution" beats and beats two and four are "tension" beats. Could someone elaborate on that for me? (Or "explicate" it, as Galper would say.)

[docbop]

Question: in one of the Hal Galper videos floating about the forum, Hal says that beats one and three are "resolution" beats and beats two and four are "tension" beats. Could someone elaborate on that for me? (Or "explicate" it, as Galper would say.)

He's talking about what the ear expects to hear, that is melodic rest point on 1 or 3. The ear want phrases to end on 1 not 4. It comes out of his Forward Motion book and there are exerts from it online. He uses a lot of examples of how Bach is written versus how we hear it.


When I studied bass in school we talked a lot about that the ear expects like any note will work on a weak beat, but the strong beats the ear wants chord tone (or scale tone.) There are some Gary Willis video around demoing this.

Our ears are very smart and pickup on things faster than we can that his why chord clusters and symmetric movement of patterns work. The ear recognizes the patterns instantly before we comprehend what's going on.

The pdf version of Hal's Forward Motion book is inexpensive and raises some interesting points.

[MarkRhodes]

An interesting reply to this question from the forum at LearnJazzPiano.com
LearnJazzPiano.com forum post by : Beats "two" & "four" ?, last updated on //, ::

A few highlights:
Practicing with the metronome on beats "two" & "four" is a method for strengthening your time sense, you have to supply the beats "one" & "three". But don't confuse that practice with the real world. On the bandstand your focus should be more on the stong anchor beats "one" & "three", that's where the resolutions are and the changes are. "Two" & "four" is the drummers accent.

Jazz piano master Hal Galper writes:
"The Release beats of a bar ("one" & "three" and the "on" beats of every quarter-note) are the strong beats of the bar. The Tension beats of the bar ("two" & "four" and the "ands" of each quarter-note) are the weak beats of the bar.

Count Basie, Ray Brown, Monty Alexander, Dick Hyman, Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea all tap their foot on beats 1 and 3.

[Uffe Steen]

Hi experts
How fast is it possible for you to play themes/improvise with a metronome (no drums) set to afterbeat without turning it around to 1 + 3

[docbop]

Helps to do more listening to albums and focusing on 2 & 4. In Jazz usually drummer's hi-hat is on 2 & 4 you have to internalize feeling 2 & 4. Get some recording of the melody/theme you're working on and listen and clap 2 & 4 till it's coming naturally, then try playing it on your guitar. It's all about getting the feel into your gut.

[docbop]

metronome at 130 for bop heads and soloing, 150 for easier stuff. after that it starts to blur for me. it's an area i need to improve in.

As tempo changes you have to change how you feel it. Fast tempos start feeling measures not beats.

Bebop Dojo: Pocket Tai Chi | Riff

[DanOwens]

I learned double bass from the great Steve Berry who ALWAYS insisted I put my click on 2 & 4 and I've never looked back.

I've also never been really happy with applying the same consideration to odd time signatures, though.

[Alter]

As the tempos get faster, it stops being practical way before it stops being possible. So in fast tempos i try to feel/tap just the 1.

[pcsanwald]

Everyone is different in this regard. When I saw Cedar Walton shortly before he passed, I was surprised to see he tapped his foot in quarter or half notes even on very fast tunes. Barry Harris, if memory serves, is a stronger advocate of feeling the "one" on faster tunes. In a video with Sonny Rollins, I was extremely surprised to see Jim Hall furiously tapping his foot on an uptempo piece while playing some beautiful laid back jazz guitar. In videos we have of Bird, he barely moves at all whilst playing.

In an interview with Pat Metheny, he says Tony Williams was very against tapping your foot at all, and pointedly told Pat to stop doing that. Tony has some pretty unconventional opinions though, which don't (IMHO) always exactly square with what he did in practice.

I don't think there's one right path here, given that everyone above is a master of the music and I'm sure there are plenty of examples of every kind of foot tapping behavior you can think of.

[Uffe Steen]

Thanks for that very fine information.

I myself am more towards "no foot tapping" as I think that all energy should be directed to the fingerboard in metronom tempo 150 and further up.

[jzucker]

Paul Bollenback was really a metronome advocate. Not just the conventional wisdom of 2 & 4 but putting it on the & of a beat. Once, he demonstrated playing a ballad with the metronome playing 1 beat per measure but he had it set of the & of 2 and he could play and improvise over that , play over the bar rhythms, polyrhythms, etc. I think it shows in his playing too.

I'm guessing adam rogers can do the same thing.

[christianm77]

You gotta feel the beat and you gotta feel the upbeats. I think everyone agrees with that, right? How this achieved - well good luck finding agreement between educators on exactly how to do this. I figure anything you practice is probably good.

10 years ago I would have said 'practice with the metronome' - down the line I think it is equally important if not more so to practice with records and of course to play as much as possible with musicians with good time (and players can have great time and not be metronomic). People obsessed with metronome practice can be a bit mechanical and inflexible with their time and swing needs to have a bit of flex in it, in my opinion, a bit of human interaction.

OTOH metronomic time sounds great for other forms of music. Modern dance music influenced things for instance.

One thing I am a little bit leery of is becoming too reliant on synchronising with the click. Putting the click on funny beats on off beats can train away from that. I like putting the click in between what I'm playing. But ultimately you want to responsible for defining your own rhythmic space.

Fast tempos - I'm an advocate of feeling in half time and phrasing in subdivisions of 16th notes so to speak. I like to practice up tempo click on 2 and 4, tap my foot 1 and 3 and play the +'s...