Rhythm Counting

[MochaFiend]

My guitar teacher asked me to do some exercises playing different rhythm notes over 4/4.

I'm having trouble counting in the weirder ones, like 7, 9, 11. I find myself playing 8, or 12.

Anyone have tips on counting these, or examples that I can listen to in order to develop a better feel for these timings?

Thank you.

[emanresu]

count backwards

edit: it was only half joke. counting backwards is so much easier to start with 5 and 7.

Another tip is to count loud while playing. And keep it simple. Add tricks only if the simple stuff feels natural. They will become natural after a while.

But 9 is all about the feel itself - basically I'd say its 3/4 with triplets each beat.. the feel. not the note logic. I have never done 11 myself. Can't help you there.

[gusgtr]

This could work...

[rpjazzguitar]

Some people use words. So, for 5 over 4, tap your foot only on one and say hippopotamus.

I suppose you could add two syllables, but for 7, I do it a different way. Not as direct, unfortunately.

Divide the bar of seven in half. The halfway point is 4&. So, tap in 7 and clap on 1 and 4&. That's 7 over 2. Double the clapping speed and you've got 7 over 4.

What happens is that 7 grooves well enough that you can learn to feel it with a little repetition. Listen to Misturada (aka Mixing) by Airto. Then you can feel that 2/7 and double it to 4/7.

Not sure about 9 or 11.

[Christian Miller]

Konnakol is a really advanced South Indian development of the hippopotamus thing

Mastering Rhythm With Konnakol - YouTube

The thing I find particularly helpful about Konnakol is the counting on the hands - makes it much easier not to lose track of the one when singing groups of 7 over 5 or whatever it is you might be doing.

It’s a great tool kit for taking apart and practicing rhythms which is why all the jazz fusion guys use it. (Starting with John McLaughlin who popularised the technique in Western Music)

Asaf taught me this process which works for any rhythm
- Start by learning to count to 8 on the hands ‘Adi Talam’
- practice speaking groupings over the top ( ‘ta di gi na tom’ for 5) and accent the syllable that lines up with the beat
- Then once this is locked in, accent the ‘ta’ of each group
- now make the other syllables quieter so you are just saying ‘ta’

You can master any polyrhythm using this process, but go through all the steps

[Eclectic16]

Christian - thanks for posting the link about Konnakol. I've only watched the first video about the basics, but Asaf Sirkis explains it very well, I think, and gives the novice very helpful instruction and examples to get started. I like it!

[Reg]

All rhythms need to be Subdivided. Almost everything breaks down to either 2 or 3 beats.

Ex. Take Five ... (1 2 3 - 1 2 )

7/4 could be ... 1 2 3 4 - 1 2 3, or 1 2 - 1 2 - 1 2 3

3/4 can become 2 doted quarter notes... so you can count or feel... 1 2 - 1 2, where each beat becomes three 8th notes.... or ( 1 + 2 / + 3 + ) or 1 2 3 - 1 2 3

[wolflen]

All rhythms need to be Subdivided. Almost everything breaks down to either 2 or 3 beats.

Ex. Take Five ... (1 2 3 - 1 2 )

7/4 could be ... 1 2 3 4 - 1 2 3, or 1 2 - 1 2 - 1 2 3

3/4 can become 2 doted quarter notes... so you can count or feel... 1 2 - 1 2, where each beat becomes three 8th notes.... or ( 1 + 2 / + 3 + ) or 1 2 3 - 1 2 3

Yes...McLaughlin has a vid (somewhere) where he breaks down rhythm patterns in odd time sigs..7..9 11 and beyond..using the "..2 or 3 beat " approach

many freeze up seeing any number higher than 4...come on guys..numbers don't bite

[rpjazzguitar]

Playing the basic pattern isn't that bad.

What I've found most difficult is changing from one unusual time signature to another in the middle of a tune at a brisk tempo.

Had one the other day, 3/4 to 2/4. In the dotted quarter in 3/4 becomes the quarter in 2/4. Apparently, different players do this different ways.

I started singing the dotted quarters to myself two bars early (while playing a different pattern) and then switched to them at time sig change. I didn't find it that easy the first time.

[Christian Miller]

Christian - thanks for posting the link about Konnakol. I've only watched the first video about the basics, but Asaf Sirkis explains it very well, I think, and gives the novice very helpful instruction and examples to get started. I like it!

Asaf’s a great teacher and one hell of a jazz/fusion drummer.

He also plays Carnatic music with masters of that tradition, so he knows his stuff.

[Christian Miller]

Playing the basic pattern isn't that bad.

What I've found most difficult is changing from one unusual time signature to another in the middle of a tune at a brisk tempo.

Had one the other day, 3/4 to 2/4. In the dotted quarter in 3/4 becomes the quarter in 2/4. Apparently, different players do this different ways.

I started singing the dotted quarters to myself two bars early (while playing a different pattern) and then switched to them at time sig change. I didn't find it that easy the first time.

Id probably find that easier to read as a duplet in 3/4 tbh, unless I’ve misunderstood what was intended.

I think in classical scores they seem to like time signature changes even when the resulting thing turns out to be in 4/4

its tricky; how would you write out ‘Here Comes the Sun’ for instance? Counting it is fine ‘ 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 ‘ or what ever your solfege equivalent is. As a beginner i didn’t even know this was in a funny time sig. But write it down and it starts to look like Bartok. No wonder orchestral players have trouble grooving (Konnakol is good for them too apparently.)

[BWV]

Had one the other day, 3/4 to 2/4. In the dotted quarter in 3/4 becomes the quarter in 2/4. Apparently, different players do this different ways.
.

Thats just an awkwardly notated hemiola, no?

[itsmyname]

Konnakol is a really advanced South Indian development of the hippopotamus thing

Mastering Rhythm With Konnakol - YouTube

The thing I find particularly helpful about Konnakol is the counting on the hands - makes it much easier not to lose track of the one when singing groups of 7 over 5 or whatever it is you might be doing.

It’s a great tool kit for taking apart and practicing rhythms which is why all the jazz fusion guys use it. (Starting with John McLaughlin who popularised the technique in Western Music)

Asaf taught me this process which works for any rhythm
- Start by learning to count to 8 on the hands ‘Adi Talam’
- practice speaking groupings over the top ( ‘ta di gi na tom’ for 5) and accent the syllable that lines up with the beat
- Then once this is locked in, accent the ‘ta’ of each group
- now make the other syllables quieter so you are just saying ‘ta’

You can master any polyrhythm using this process, but go through all the steps

thanks for the you tube channel with the Konnakol rythm, I didn't know this channel !

[rlrhett]

Slightly off topic, but I found additive rhythm as presented by Mike Longo very useful. It isn’t about learning to count rhythm in the abstract, but more about counting a specific pattern irrespective of time signature.

Eg: A bar of: dotted quarter note, eighth, eighth, quarter note, quarter note, eighth rest.

This happens to be in 5/4 time, but Longo would have you count: 1-2-3,1,1,1-2,1-2,um. Don’t worry about the time signature.

I am no expert in this, so I defer to others. But I’ve found it very helpful, especially for rhythms in odd time signatures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[BWV]

thanks for the you tube channel with the Konnakol rythm, I didn't know this channel !

This is cool

[Litterick]

Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting.
Gottfried Leibniz.

[itsmyname]

This is cool

I listened to "so what" , then I listened to "blue in green" then I told to myself i should add this record in my play list, excellent !

[emanresu]

Today I had a student that needed the first steps in basic soloing. So I showed some examples about what the thing is..
It's just so weird that every damn song has syncopation in the melody. It's so natural and unremarkable.
But the first steps playing a solo has 0 of them. And when they TRY doing it, it always goes south at first.
Why?

[Christian Miller]

Today I had a student that needed the first steps in basic soloing. So I showed some examples about what the thing is..
It's just so weird that every damn song has syncopation in the melody. It's so natural and unremarkable.
But the first steps playing a solo has 0 of them. And when they TRY doing it, it always goes south at first.
Why?

Yeah it is strange. Most beginning jazz students have very little rhythmic vocabulary. You ask them to come up with rhythms on one note, or just tapping rhythms and they exhaust their repertoire very quickly. Theres just nothing in the bag, it’s like they don’t think of rhythm as a separate thing even.

The thing is if you have that in the bag then you can take triad tones through a song and it will sound like jazz. If not there’s no amount of clever shit chord scales etc that will compensate. So it’s really a matter of priority, (along with teaching students that chords aren’t grips and melodies can be made directly from chords.)

One way I’ve tried to address this is getting students to transcribe but not worry about pitches - just sing rhythms they hear on records and try and come up with things based on them. Well I say that but I haven’t done that for a while. Time for a revisit.

[Christian Miller]

Slightly off topic, but I found additive rhythm as presented by Mike Longo very useful. It isn’t about learning to count rhythm in the abstract, but more about counting a specific pattern irrespective of time signature.

Eg: A bar of: dotted quarter note, eighth, eighth, quarter note, quarter note, eighth rest.

This happens to be in 5/4 time, but Longo would have you count: 1-2-3,1,1,1-2,1-2,um. Don’t worry about the time signature.

I am no expert in this, so I defer to others. But I’ve found it very helpful, especially for rhythms in odd time signatures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Longo’s hidden 5 sounds to me like the Bembe clave

Apparently ML taught Mark Ronson (Uptown Funk, Amy Winehouse etc) piano - his was very few tributes paid to Mike that I saw when he died a couple of years back, although I’m sure Adam Rafferty did one too.

It’s been a tough couple of years for the jazz community.

[Reg]

I'm probably beating a dead horse etc... But If you want to play Jazz ....and not just go through the motions.

You need to have the basic rhythmic skills together. Which is understanding and being able to feel...

Pulse, or the beat, Tempo and Subdivisions.

What you play needs to.... create and imply repetition, or at least create the Perception of Time with Repetition.

You can't play Compound or Odd Time without have the basics together first.

The basics are use of 4/4 and 3/4,and all the standard variations of. As mentioned above basic Hemiola 3:2...
Triple and Duple Meter... simple jazz version... use of the Triplet.

I'm talking about performing in a jazz style....

Then.....As MocaFiend's teacher was trying to probable teach him, learning how the Subdivide. Find all the common ways to subdivide.

Here is link for simple examples...https://www.musictheoryacademy.com/h...ompound-meter/

Once you have Time.... that means your not a Time follower, most amateur musicians follow time. Not a bad or wrong thing, just what it is.

Anyway, then maybe you would work on learning and being able to play... Irregular and Odd Times. Ones that can't be divided into groups of 2 or 3.

The link posted by gusgtr above... Konnakol and Asaf's ... are not where one starts.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=Reg;1180160]I'm probably beating a dead horse etc... But If you want to play Jazz ....and not just go through the motions.

You need to have the basic rhythmic skills together. Which is understanding and being able to feel...

Pulse, or the beat, Tempo and Subdivisions.

What you play needs to.... create and imply repetition, or at least create the Perception of Time with Repetition.

You can't play Compound or Odd Time without have the basics together first.

For me it is fully understanding the "upbeat"..what I find is many get lost in rhythmic patterns that involve repetitive accented upbeat phrases
to the extent that they mis-count on the downbeat..(in 4/4 .. the downbeat will be ONE when it should be two three or four)

[Christian Miller]

I'm probably beating a dead horse etc... But If you want to play Jazz ....and not just go through the motions.

You need to have the basic rhythmic skills together. Which is understanding and being able to feel...

Pulse, or the beat, Tempo and Subdivisions.

What you play needs to.... create and imply repetition, or at least create the Perception of Time with Repetition.

You can't play Compound or Odd Time without have the basics together first.

For me it is fully understanding the "upbeat"..what I find is many get lost in rhythmic patterns that involve repetitive accented upbeat phrases
to the extent that they mis-count on the downbeat..(in 4/4 .. the downbeat will be ONE when it should be two three or four)

Thats certainly a sign that the student isn’t really feeling the upbeat.

But it’s kind of more basic than that. Can the student make up rhythms without any pitch content (even if they are poorly executed)?

[Reg]

Yes.. to both Christian and Wolflen.... But we're working with amateurs, right. Pros shouldn't have these problems, right. We don't really need to count... we recognize rhythmic patterns and just play them, even when the notation sucks or implies something else.

I tend to find that amateurs... just can't lock into rhythmic patterns, from either counting or just not having their rhythmic skill together yet. And usually what I try and do is set up the accents, where ever they are. That's what I was implying by Rhythmic followers... They are always in the moment and that tends to mean they're late or don't know what's coming or implied by rhythmic patterns etc... The difference between a working gig or having fun etc...

And this is really before getting into compound , let alone irregular and odd time etc... Of course then there is the next level... creating different feels from same rhythmic figures and styles. The implied accent patterns and getting behind and ahead... to help create feel and tension which helps draw audiences in. OK... now I'm drifting... sorry, again my point was, you can"t play compound, irregular or odd times without having a reference for them to become... " irregular, odd or compound". There is a standard approach for getting rhythmic skills together.
I didn't figure this out by myself.

[eh6794-2.0]

like 7/4? This is a lot easier than it sounds. Before you start with a metronome, steadily count and clap like this: clap 2 3 4 5 6 7 clap 2 3 4 5 6 7..... etc

Once you know how it feels, use the metronome at a slow enough tempo where you can do it. If you mess up, stop the metronome, get a feel for it again, the turn the metronome back on.