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Hello all,
I'm on a quest to find the so called definitive recordings of jazz standards ( Great American Songbook type stuff)- you know, the ones that supposedly every great jazz player learned such and such tune from. Why is there no extensive listing? I would assume this would be something that would have been around for years now, but I have had no luck finding anything other than scattered references to certain recordings. For example, a standard as played by Miles Davis is probably not the original definitive recording, but where do you go for the source of all these tunes?
Thanks!
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11-28-2014 10:39 PM
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You mean like this...
http://www.jazzstandards.com/compositions/index.htm
I'm not a big Wynton fan but he has a series of CD's called Standards Time that he's recorded many of the popular standards. Also just go to Amazon or similar store and just type in standards and you'll find lots of albums by artists doing standard.Last edited by docbop; 11-28-2014 at 11:12 PM.
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Thank you very much DocBop! I can't believe I have not come across this yet. Its exactly what I've been looking for!
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There is just such a listing at the Jazz Standards website. I haven't explored it in any detail, but it has lots of information on 1000 jazz standards, iirc. Background on the tune, links to recommended recommended recordings of the tune, and for a number of tunes links to on-line play-along versions.
Here is the page for "What is this thing called Love?"
The one thing that seems to be lacking is (embedded) free video or audio tracks.
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Cool link, docbop.
I sorted the page by date. It was interesting to walk through the list in chronological order and see what tunes were coming out around the same time.
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That's a great site, Docbop. Great source of info on specific tunes.
But back to the OP, the version that many early jazz greats heard of standards would not necessarily be from a recording. Early on, most people didn't not have record players. Heck, radios weren't in every home either. (My mom had a father who loved music and always had a nice radio in the home. It was a Very Big Deal in their north Mississippi area. When there was a prize fight or a presidential speech, neighbors would come for miles to hear it on their radio because they didn't have radios at home. Many local performers on radio shows did their versions of 'hits of the day.' BB King had a daily radio show in Memphis as a youngster. Many 'name' pros started out playing live music on a local radio station.)
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Love the background information on this site.
Originally Posted by docbop
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There are no definitive versions of standards, really, although Ella Fitzgerald's various songbooks with Nelson Riddle's arrangements are as close as any, with the right melodies, lyrics and changes. Sinatra, Bennett and Torme all recorded definitive versions as well. Generally, instrumental versions are not definitive, since they lack the lyrics, which are necessary to the interpretation of a song, except, of course, for instrumental standards. Finding the original recordings of older standards from the Broadway show repertoire will be very surprising for most, since they hardly ever resemble what jazz musicians do to them.
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Following up on my own earlier post, I talked to my mom about this and she pointed out that much of the music she heard on the radio in the '40s was live performances from hotels. I had read that many famous bands 'held court' at certain ballrooms and that some of their performances were broadcast on the radio, but I took this in as someone who had grown up assuming that radio (music radio, anyway) was primarily about records, not live performances. Back then, (studio) recordings were only part of what one heard on the radio, and in some cases a small part.
That is to say, a song could be very familiar to people without being attached to a particular performer of it. (I guess for many of "The Star-Spangled Banner" is a good example of this, or "Take Me Out To The Ballgame.")
(There's a whole other subject dear to my mother's heart: radio shows such as "The Shadow" and "The Lone Ranger"---dramatic programs on radio before television.)Last edited by MarkRhodes; 11-29-2014 at 03:26 PM.
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Mark,
Woody Allen's 'Radio Days' seems to catch the spirit of this time... at least as I read your post the mpvoe came to my mind...
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Ah, I hadn't thought of that, but yes, that is fitting. Woody loves music and he likes for the people IN his movies to hear music: from a radio, a band in a public place, or a lone musician in a private one. In one of his films, "Flyin' Home" plays during a dining scene. That made my day! Originally Posted by Jonah
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Wynton's Standard Time is NOT a good reference for definitive standards. They mess with the time of the arrangements quite dramatically in some cases. Autumn Leaves has some great metric modulation going on but don't listen and learn that version thinking you can apply it anywhere else.
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There's no definitive list but there is a consensus of the selections made by younger students.
A lot of the songs have been deleted but there's plenty left;
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^^^
Try '100 Must Know Jazz Standards Consensus List' to see the entire list.
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For me Autumen Leaves has no defenitive record at all...
I know original song performed in a movie by Ives Montands
I know Miles' version that made it jazz standard
But I know the song much earlier... I do not know from where - this la-la-la-la... la-la-la-la-la...
Where from? Maybe mother sang it? Maybe I heard in subway from blind accordeon player out of tune? I never know
No record all... just a song in my mind. That is real hit!
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I do think the Sinatra / Basie collaboration on "Fly Me To The Moon" and "The Best Is Yet To Come" are definitive.
Here's the first of that pair, from 1964
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Thank you all for your input! I have long wondered where the jazz greats first learned these tunes. I know that Marty grosz actually goes to the original sheet music for early tunes and arranges from there. Makes sense to me!
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Maybe a little bit off topic, but I find the "Sources" listings in Chuck Sher's Real Books to be fascinating reading. And with youtube it's so easy to find and check out the specific recordings they refer to.
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Mark, Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Most radio stations during the 30s, 40s and 50s, in towns that were large enough to have one or more, employed staff bands. The only records that one generally heard on the radio then were the 16 inch transcription discs which were usually recorded in major markets to be distributed to affiliate stations in the hinterlands. The local stations could play the discs and insert local commercials by the local announcers.
Many well-known musical acts made transcription disc for rebroadcast some of which have been collected on CD. George Barnes and Bob Wills are two such artists. All of the existing live radio recordings of Charlie Christian with Benny Goodman were preserved on transcription discs. The same goes for all of the surviving radio dramas such as The War of the Worlds, The Green Hornet, The Shadow, et al.
With the advent of television, the staff musicians in the major markets got the benefit of more work and the same held true in the smaller markets until records started to replace live music on radio. I heard a lot of live music mixed with records on radio as a small child and in the 1960s, when I was a teenager, several of the local stations still employed a few live musicians.
Regards,
JeromeLast edited by monk; 12-03-2014 at 04:23 PM.
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"The Jazz Standards" by Ted Gioia is a good reference book.
Arranged alphabetically, the author discusses the composer, song construction, who recorded it first, who had hit recordings and why jazz musicians made it part of the standard repertoire. Gioia also lists several important recordings of each song. For obvious reasons, the book does not include EVERY standard, but it's got the songs most audiences are likely to request as well as the songs that the pros like to play among themselves.
It's a good source for on-stage banter in between songs and setting up the audience for the next song on your set list.
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Excellent information everyone! I think I'll have to trade in my Hal Leonard real books for the
sher ones, as well as look into the gioia book. The radio information is very interesting as well,
Showing that the majority of those early players would have learned the tune from some kind
of sheet music or from someone who had learned it. Which brings up another point- why do so many musicians hate fake books? Why not use them like I do - as a reference to check yourself against a recorded version and vice versa? Especially when the sources are there and the living composers even acknowledge if the tune is right like in the sher series? Seems to me too many people are focused on sounding like a certain era than bringing a fresh interpretation to a standard.
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In a book I read about rockabilly / '50s rock, I read that one of the Everly Brothers had a radio show when he was in the 3rd grade! I think it was on Saturday mornings for 15 minutes. Somewhere in Iowa... B.B. King talked about his radio show (Memphis) in his autobiography. A very different world back then.... Originally Posted by monk
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Mostly jazz players do not have intention to perform a song like composer wrote it... and what's there to check?Why not use them like I do - as a reference to check yourself against a recorded version and vice versa? Especially when the sources are there and the living composers even acknowledge if the tune is right like in the sher series?
Jazz was based on 'what was heard', not 'read from the score'...
I can quite easily sight-read scores - and there was period when I was really into two big volumes of Jazz Books I had... it is still fun to me to open it somewhere and start playing unfamiliar song.
but as for the piece I know now I prefer to play it by ear.
Charts are always a kind of sketch, often very approximate... it is good for learning of the unknow song, or draft of arrangement...
I think it is very useful for studio pros for example when they have just to come out there and play.
One has to be capable to play music from charts not just chord shapes with melody at the top... it is not that simple, there should be some concept for it.
I can sight-read notated scores - but I will not say I can really sight-read charts properly - I mean I immediately can play chord (or hear it in my mind) and melody - I am not sure that I will always immediately interprete properly in the style required.
To understand what music is from the chart and to play it from the chart as music are two different things.
It has never been 'a score' to interprete... they played over what they heard.Seems to me too many people are focused on sounding like a certain era than bringing a fresh interpretation to a standard.
standard books appeared whne jazz became taught at the schools (that is practically gone).Last edited by Jonah; 12-03-2014 at 05:01 PM.
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Mark,
Don and Phil lived here in Knoxville during their teen years. Don graduated from West High School in 1955 and they moved to Nashville shortly after that. During their time here they performed on the radio as a duo but they got their start earlier in The Everly Family Band as Little Donnie and Baby Phil.
Their father Ike Everly was from Muhlenberg County, Kentucky and was considered along with Mose Rager to be one of the best guitarists in the county. Ike and Mose both mentored young Merle Travis who always credited them with showing him how to play the thumbpicking style.
As an aside, actor James Best was the son of Ike's sister and thus cousin to The Everly Brothers.
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Tune-Dex cards (3x5 cards with the lyric and chords) started coming out in 1942 and kept coming out until 1963. Lots of musicians bought them. Originally Posted by Jonah
I read a book about them some years back. Here's a link to short article on a collection of them in a library.
Popular Music Tune-Dex Cards | University Library Blog
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