All The Thing You Are - Need Help with 2 Chords

[Blind Lemon Mike]

Hey there,

this is Mike from Germany, I'm new to this Community.

I have played a little Jazz every once in a while but now want to start to take things a little more seriously and have a shot on more complex Standards then what i used to play up until now ( Autumn Leaves, All of Me etc..)

I tried All The Thing You Are today and it is pretty clear to me what's happening except for 2 Chords where i ask for you help.

1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?

I understand that the Eb is a common Tone and if you put it as the top Voice it kind of holds the 2 Chords together but is there a functioning connection between the two?

2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?

I see this as a chromatic Line in the Bass C , B , Bb. If it was the other way round ( Bb-7 , B°7, C-7 ) i would say B°7 fills in for A7b9 but in this case I cannot see the connection. Where does is come from?

Can the whole passag really be viewed in Ab tonality-wise? Because that's where you come from and go, except for those 2 Chords? (C-7 beeing a III of Abmajor)


thank you very much in advance for helping me out on this one. My concern is not so much what to play over it, since i get by with chord tones and using small Voice-leading but i want to understand how it is constructed and thought-out from the composers view....

Blind Lemon Mike

[Roberoo]

That section is, in my view, moving to the target chord of Abmaj7. The Gb7 seems awkward in that context (especially when it goes to Cm7) but I just view it as a disguised Dbm6 (they share the tritone) which is the IVm of Ab. Viewed as Ddm6 the root moment is stepwise Db to C) In a way that chord acts as a pivot to drive you to the Ab in that it makes clear you are anchored in Ab.

The next section continues the drive to Ab. The Bo7 is a passing chord between the Cmin7 and the Bbmin7. It could be viewed as a disguised Bb7 and the passage could be substituted with more traditional root anchors movement. as Cm7/Fm7/Bb7/Bbm7/Eb7/AbM7.

Lots of fun stuff going on in that tune and a great lesson in key modulation.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have always played that part of the tune with a descending bass line,

Dbmaj7, Dbm7, Cm7, B7, Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj7.

If you imagine for a moment that the changes above are correct, then ....

1. You can view the Dbm7 as a iim and the Gb7 as the related V7.

2. And, the Bdim is an alternative to the B7 (actually, Bdim sounds better, and, now that you've reminded me of it, I may use it).

[christianm77]

Hey there,

this is Mike from Germany, I'm new to this Community.

I have played a little Jazz every once in a while but now want to start to take things a little more seriously and have a shot on more complex Standards then what i used to play up until now ( Autumn Leaves, All of Me etc..)

I tried All The Thing You Are today and it is pretty clear to me what's happening except for 2 Chords where i ask for you help.

1. How does the connection from Gb7/13 to C-7 work?

I understand that the Eb is a common Tone and if you put it as the top Voice it kind of holds the 2 Chords together but is there a functioning connection between the two?

I'm not really sure where this is in the tune... I don't think I've ever played this chord.

2. How does B°7 in C-7 |B°7 |Bb-7 fit in?

I see this as a chromatic Line in the Bass C , B , Bb. If it was the other way round ( Bb-7 , B°7, C-7 ) i would say B°7 fills in for A7b9 but in this case I cannot see the connection. Where does is come from?

Can the whole passag really be viewed in Ab tonality-wise? Because that's where you come from and go, except for those 2 Chords? (C-7 beeing a III of Abmajor)

Yes. Bo7 is a sort of linking or passing chord, similar in function to a VI7 chord, but more colourful. This type of chord bIIIo7, is very common in older standards - be on the look out for it! Jobim also likes it.

The important thing I've learned is not to get hung up on the vertical relationships between passing chords. The important thing these chords provide interesting movement against a diatonic melody.

For instance, if you had an Ab in the melody and wanted a strong harmonic movement to the Bbm7 chord, writing Fm7 might be a little boring. OTOH F7 wouldn't really fit (you could write F7#9 I suppose.) But the most common solution is to write Bo7.

It's also very common when there is a F (6) or the notes G F (7-6) in this key... In the latter case you get a nice voicing with the Bdim7 (bIIIo7) and the G (7) in the top voice.... In this case an F9 would also work, but the bIIIo7 is a very common choice in this context and seems to have been a fashionable sound in the 1930 &40s.

This is what ATTYA has... Very common cliche - look out for it....

[christianm77]

I have always played that part of the tune with a descending bass line,

Dbmaj7, Dbm7, Cm7, B7, Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj7.

If you imagine for a moment that the changes above are correct, then ....

1. You can view the Dbm7 as a iim and the Gb7 as the related V7.

2. And, the Bdim is an alternative to the B7 (actually, Bdim sounds better, and, now that you've reminded me of it, I may use it).

I don't actually think bIII7 is used very often in original standards changes. I can only really think of one example, One Note Samba, from the post war era. Clearly it's a tritone sub for VI7 anyway, so I think of it as that really.

The bIIIo7 is pretty old school. Some people prefer to reharmonise that sound to make it less old fashioned. A chromatic iim7 or ii-V motion is a common bebop choice... e.g.

Cm7 Bm7 Bbm7

Cm7 F7 Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7

It would have to be a Bm7b5 F7b9 really, in this example, to fit the melody. You can get away with it if you leave out the 5th.... Or you could change the melody.

A well known example of this is Darn That Dream. In the original changes we have a Bbo7 (bIIIo7) in the second half of bar 6 and the melody is E-Eb

The real book changes are (Bbm7) bIIIm7, and the melody changed to F-Eb to fit. This is probably inspired by the Miles version:

It's another one of those shibboleths BTW, what you pay in bar 6 of the tune. Old school guys like the dim7. Keep your ear out for the melody.

Anyway, I digress. We should do a thread on DOD.... Fascinating tune.

[Blind Lemon Mike]

Thanks for your views on this...It's good to go trought some different views

I consulted a Theory-Book todas that suggestes this view:

1. biii° as replacement for #IV dim which would be the V of V which and therefore directly linked to Eb7 in this case with the IIm7 just pushed inbetween the two...

anyway i think i will just try out different approaches and see what works best...

@christianm77

the Gb13 comes right before the Cm7 so the whole thing is Gb7/13 | Cm7 | B°7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 . These are the last bars of the Tune, at least in my Real Book (sixth edition)

Over the Gb13 chords the melody ist dotted half note Eb and a quarter note then followed by the Eb i n the melody over the C-7...

regards
Michael

[grahambop]

I think most people play this as Dbmaj then Dbmin, then optionally a brief Gb7, then Cmin etc.

Not worth getting hung up on that Gb7, just a passing chord. Much easier to think Db maj, then Db min, I don't worry about that Gb7 much when soloing on these bars.

[Roberoo]

T

anyway i think i will just try out different approaches and see what works best...

Yep - that is one thing I like about this tune... the modulations, the stepwise lines... it gives you so much to work with that it is endless really.

Rob

[Blind Lemon Mike]

yeah but besides pragmatic approaches for playing I'm also that kind of person that cannot just accept things "because they work..." but it drives me mad if I don't get the theory behind it

regars
Michael

[Blind Lemon Mike]

Ok that will do the job, thanks....

have to check out the workings of the backdoor-cadence now....jazz is endless fun

regards
Michael

[christianm77]

.

@christianm77

the Gb13 comes right before the Cm7 so the whole thing is Gb7/13 | Cm7 | B°7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 . These are the last bars of the Tune, at least in my Real Book (sixth edition)

Over the Gb13 chords the melody ist dotted half note Eb and a quarter note then followed by the Eb i n the melody over the C-7...

regards
Michael

Gotcha.

I don't think of it being cm7 is the answer. I think Abmaj/c

It's a backdoor dominant

[mr. beaumont]

It follows the melody, that's how it works.

I mean, the melody us either a 13 on the Gb chord or a 9 if you think Db minor.

It's all just downward movement...but the melody dictates everything...I'm with henry, why over complicate?

[Blind Lemon Mike]

sure, from the players point of view.

But if you are about to write a melody, at least in this case, i would suggest you have harmonys in mind also.

Therefore if you want to compose also it's quite interesting how you can make a simple melody more interesting or work out a melody to a alread complex structure that ist there in the first place.

regards
Michael

[mr. beaumont]

I'm failing to see the difference. A Gb13 and a Dbm6/9 are synonyms...

[christianm77]

I'm failing to see the difference. A Gb13 and a Dbm6/9 are synonyms...

Indeed. As a Barry Harris devotee we tend to think of the dominant (there is no such thing as II) but the II is part of the V, if you follow.

[Blind Lemon Mike]

I don't get your point, honestly ?!? no offense...

Not exactly synonyms, or are they?
Doesn't the way you look at this change the way improvise over it? Or are you just always going to play Eb there....

regards
Michael

[Blind Lemon Mike]

Indeed. As a Barry Harris devotee we tend to think of the dominant (there is no such thing as II) but the II is part of the V, if you follow.

I might just not follow anymore due to my limited knowledge. I don't know about Barry Harris ideas at all.

If you can recommend something to read, it's appreciated

regards
Michael

[christianm77]

sure, from the players point of view.

But if you are about to write a melody, at least in this case, i would suggest you have harmonys in mind also.

Therefore if you want to compose also it's quite interesting how you can make a simple melody more interesting or work out a melody to a alread complex structure that ist there in the first place.

regards
Michael

Some of the changes are strongly implied by the melody (or vice versa) but in the case of the Db-/Gb7 and Bo7 chords, they are the product of chromatic voice leading/basslines against a diatonic melody. This is very common. Look at the standard repertoire of vocal standards and you will see not only the same chord progressions, but a lot of very similar melodic moves over them.

For example. It's rare to have chromatic note - b6, b7 etc (I'm talking from the key) on a IVm or bVII7 in melody. In general, you find the 1, 4, 2 or 3 on this chord.

In the last case you have bVII7#11 or IVm(maj7) written in the chart - look out for this. But it's just a 3 of the key with a chromatic chord behind it.

Likewise, you'll rarely a b3 or a b5 on a bIIIo7 chord - those notes are reserved for the inner voices and bassline. The note is usually a 6, very often with an appogiatura 7 leading into it. You could also have 1.

If you think about it, if you have a nice chromatic line running down, it's inelegant to also express that in the melody - bad counterpoint. It's better to have oblique motion between melody and the other lines in the chords (or even contrary motion). Just as in classical music there are certain formulae that work really well and get used over and over.

This formulaicness of the melody against the changes makes learning tunes and working out 'chord melody' arrangements a lot easier.

Where you will find these notes is in bop heads. Bop changes running is a different thing to the way standards were composed. Bop lines come out of voice leading.

[christianm77]

I don't get your point, honestly ?!? no offense...

Not exactly synonyms, or are they?
Doesn't the way you look at this change the way improvise over it? Or are you just always going to play Eb there....

No it doesn't.

I see those two chords, bVII7 and IVm as interchangeable and I think most experienced straightahead guys hear it that way. There's obviously a ii-V relationship, as the Berklee guys would say.

Just google All the Things You Are and go to images and you will see some charts have Dbm and others have Gb7. It's pretty much 50/50.

You can use a IV dorian/bVII mixolydian thing or IV melodic minor/bVII Lydian dominant thing, so to speak.

(Re: Barry Harris, hoo, that's a can of worms. It's a different way to view it all (no modes for instance) and I think a MUCH better way for bop/functional playing, but it can be a little inaccessible for the newcomer. I started learning it at Barry's workshops, and I'd have to recommend the DVD sets available from Howard Rees. But they are expensive. Roni Ben Hurr's book Talk Jazz is a nice intro perhaps?)

So whatever. My main advice to you would be check out lots of repertoire, melody and chords. Draw your own conclusions. I could write you a hand out but it would look like a bunch of math. It really is better if you do the work yourself, although the guidance of a teacher can be helpful. Could make a list of tunes if you like.

[Runepune]

yeah but besides pragmatic approaches for playing I'm also that kind of person that cannot just accept things "because they work..." but it drives me mad if I don't get the theory behind it

regars
Michael

Theory never hurts. Unless one gets caught up inside it

As mentioned, the Gb7 is "backdoor". The Bo7 I hear as kind of a dom7 to the Cm (VII7, iiim7). Try playing a straight G/B in that spot.

[henryrobinett]

I couldn't figure out the Gb7 chord you were talking about. Then I realized it was what I sometimes play as the ii-V before Cm7. Dbm7 - Gb7. I mean it's just a II-V. It's easy peasy.

What I was saying about making things really complicated is that. There's no reason why particularly, especially when you get into very modern music. One chord goes to another with little rhyme or reason. For me I see it, hear it and play what works. Simplicity. I spend almost no time THINKING about it.


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[christianm77]

Theory never hurts. Unless one gets caught up inside it

As mentioned, the Gb7 is "backdoor". The Bo7 I hear as kind of a dom7 to the Cm (VII7, iiim7). Try playing a straight G/B in that spot.

Man I tried that but really can't hear it as a vanilla choice myself.

I'd be more likely to see it that way in a tune like Corcovado or Insensatez because the first chord in each of those is a m6 so has more of a minor tonic thing going on.

In this context, the Cm7 has more of a first inversion Ab feel - it would take a b6, so the G/B is just in parallel and sounds a bit weird...

Btw - each o7 chord relates to 4 doms:

Bo7 --> Bb7, Db7, E7, G7

In this case, I would be more likely to hear it as related to Bb7 rather than the G7

BUT - you may get something out of using G/B in this context of course. Could be great for lines...

Ab G7 Eb7 say....

BTW, if we are thinking about composition rather than soloing I really don't think the composer was thinking of the dim7 being related to dominants here. I can't know for sure, but old school composers don't write like that, and Kern was old school. I reckon he'd be thinking - diatonic melody running 7-6, lets run descending minor thirds in the voice leading....

These guys didn't write lead sheets with chord symbols. They wrote proper harmony.

[henryrobinett]

And the Bo I play as a Bo. Lol. I could play it as a G7/B. But I don't because the implications can shoot me down a road that doesn't sound very good to me, nine times out of ten. It's not a V chord. A V of ii, ok. But I like the sound of a diminished chord there. It just sounds good. So soloing I'll play a diminished arpeggio or scale or something or just let my ear guide me. I might do a funny substitution, depending on where I'm going.


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[christianm77]

I couldn't figure out the Gb7 chord you were talking about. Then I realized it was what I sometimes play as the ii-V before Cm7. Dbm7 - Gb7. I mean it's just a II-V. It's easy peasy.

What I was saying about making things really complicated is that. There's no reason why particularly, especially when you get into very modern music. One chord goes to another with little rhyme or reason. For me I see it, hear it and play what works. Simplicity. I spend almost no time THINKING about it.


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Perhaps people don't learn enough functional tunes. If you learn 50 standards and don't spot there's something going on with IVm bVII7 etc, and that they are basically the same thing, well... Maybe jazz isn't for you.

But nowadays people learn a lot of modal and non functional rep right away. Beginners IMO shouldn't be dicking around with Speak no Evil and Footprints, they should be learning I Can't Give You Anything But Love (there's a tune with bIIIo7 and IVm), All of Me and tunes like that. Learn enough of those and it will give you the furniture....

Just try playing trad jazz and swing gigs and not figuring that out. There would have to actually have to be something wrong with your brain not to spot those patterns.

People - especially young players - want to be hip and modern and do cool things with harmony. I know I did. But that's like thinking about the decor before you've laid the foundations.

Anyway - I never learned any of this stuff in books - although it looks terribly theoretical when I write it down. I learned it by winging songs on the band stand.

Last 8 of All the Things? Descending horse with a swing turnaround. Nothing to write home about.

[henryrobinett]

Yup.


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