Would like some advice on improving reading from Real Book

[pamosmusic]

What does that mean, read rhythms?

He means literally learning how to interpret the rhythmic component of sheet music and turn it into sound.

With students I have them look at music and clap the rhythms without their instruments.

It’s really difficult for beginners (or anyone really) to do this because we’re so primed to want to hear ourselves playing the right pitches, but this is almost universally the most important part of any situation that would require sight reading.

The most common situation that would require sight reading is some kind of rehearsal or jam situation where the operative thing is to be playing together. The wrong notes in the right rhythm are at least together.

I have this jazz ensemble of elementary schoolers and it’s soooooooo hard for them to get used to the idea that I DO NOT want them working on the notes when they’re in the room with the full band. All rhythm. We get the rhythms together here and you work on the notes at home.

Anyway … long tangent, but decoding rhythms is the doozy.

[Christian Miller]

I did a video a while back that may be helpful

Rather than counting, divide the 4/4 bar in half and learn to recognise and audiate rhythmic cells. I used to have flash cards for this!

Also the Mike Longo approach is interesting. It goes organically from a modified form of counting to rhythmic solfege. Very cool. Might demonstrate if I get a minute.

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[pawlowski6132]

I take it that I should have said time or tempo. Counting, as mentioned above. The notes are easy to learn but I haven’t delved into decoding the cadence.


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Ah yes. That's an area I need lots of work in. Practicing with a metronome. I recorded myself a few times playing along with the backing track and it just doesn't sound right I'm either behind the beat or I'm compensating too much and I end up rushing it.

I think that's what we're talking about here still?

[Kirk Garrett]

He means literally learning how to interpret the rhythmic component of sheet music and turn it into sound.

With students I have them look at music and clap the rhythms without their instruments.

It’s really difficult for beginners (or anyone really) to do this because we’re so primed to want to hear ourselves playing the right pitches, but this is almost universally the most important part of any situation that would require sight reading.

The most common situation that would require sight reading is some kind of rehearsal or jam situation where the operative thing is to be playing together. The wrong notes in the right rhythm are at least together.

I have this jazz ensemble of elementary schoolers and it’s soooooooo hard for them to get used to the idea that I DO NOT want them working on the notes when they’re in the room with the full band. All rhythm. We get the rhythms together here and you work on the notes at home.

Anyway … long tangent, but decoding rhythms is the doozy.

I wish I could have said it this well. Yes.

I’ve only dabbled in one of the Mel Bay books to distinguish the time values of different notes. I seem stuck at an elementary level for now.


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[pawlowski6132]

He means literally learning how to interpret the rhythmic component of sheet music and turn it into sound.

With students I have them look at music and clap the rhythms without their instruments.

It’s really difficult for beginners (or anyone really) to do this because we’re so primed to want to hear ourselves playing the right pitches, but this is almost universally the most important part of any situation that would require sight reading.

The most common situation that would require sight reading is some kind of rehearsal or jam situation where the operative thing is to be playing together. The wrong notes in the right rhythm are at least together.

I have this jazz ensemble of elementary schoolers and it’s soooooooo hard for them to get used to the idea that I DO NOT want them working on the notes when they’re in the room with the full band. All rhythm. We get the rhythms together here and you work on the notes at home.

Anyway … long tangent, but decoding rhythms is the doozy.

I honestly don't mean for this to sound antagonistic but, I still don't understand.

Do you mean tempo?? Playing in time?

Or, do you mean reading and understanding that a quarter note = 1 beat?

Or something else??

[pamosmusic]

I honestly don't mean for this to sound antagonistic but, I still don't understand.

Do you mean tempo?? Playing in time?

Or, do you mean reading and understanding that a quarter note = 1 beat?

Or something else??

If you see dotted quarter note, eighth note, quarter rest, quarter note, what does it sound like?

[pawlowski6132]

If you see dotted quarter note, eighth note, quarter rest, quarter note, what does it sound like?

Of course. I learned that when I was 10.

I can't believe that's what we're talking about here.

[pamosmusic]

Of course. I learned that when I was 10.

I can't believe that's what we're talking about here.

Well that’s very nice for you.

As far as I’m aware, not everyone has been so lucky.

And for the record, I find that the more abrasive a person is in asserting their own knowledge and talent, the less of it they tend to have. Things to ponder.

[jobabrinks]

Reading rhythms is easy.

But reading rhythms in real moving time when you're playing with a bass player and drummer is hard.

If you screw up they're not going to stop.

I think people get where I'm going with this. I've practiced a couple of hours this morning.

The main hang up is getting hung on rhythms that tie into the next measure, not seeing ahead, and playing a wrong note and then you play wrong intervals from there.

I just need to get used to skipping entire measures and landing on a safe spot.

[pamosmusic]

Reading rhythms is easy.

But reading rhythms in real moving time when you're playing with a bass player and drummer is hard.

If you screw up they're not going to stop.

I think people get where I'm going with this. I've practiced a couple of hours this morning.

The main hang up is getting hung on rhythms that tie into the next measure, not seeing ahead, and playing a wrong note and then you play wrong intervals from there.

I just need to get used to skipping entire measures and landing on a safe spot.

Yeah that’s the rub. Simple rhythms become tricky when someone else is playing even another simple rhythm that doesn’t line up with yours.

Maybe record a little track for yourself and read as a duet. Play a Charleston rhythm or something on the bass notes, then go through and read the rhythm. That kind of thing. Hard to do that kind of thing and keep it fresh enough to be reading practice though.

or maybe just reading along with free backing tracks.

[pawlowski6132]

Well that’s very nice for you.

As far as I’m aware, not everyone has been so lucky.

And for the record, I find that the more abrasive a person is in asserting their own knowledge and talent, the less of it they tend to have. Things to ponder.

First, don't tell me what to ponder.

Second, I don't Believe anyone here doesn't know the values of written notes.

I still don't know what we're talking about here.

I guess if I was sight reading a difficult passage for the first time.

Is that what we're talking about??

[pamosmusic]

First, don't tell me what to ponder.

Second, I don't Believe anyone here doesn't know the values of written notes.

I still don't know what we're talking about here.

I guess if I was sight reading a difficult passage for the first time.

Is that what we're talking about??

Yes. He’s talking about sight reading.

And knowing the values of rhythms is different than being able execute them in real time while other people play other rhythms.

[Mick-7]

I honestly don't mean for this to sound antagonistic but, I still don't understand.
Do you mean tempo?? Playing in time?
Or, do you mean reading and understanding that a quarter note = 1 beat?

All of the above in real time: a conceptual understanding of how to do something and actually being able to do it (well) are two very different things.

[Kirk Garrett]

All of the above in real time: a conceptual understanding of how to do something and actually being able to do it (well) are two very different things.

Right. The simple stuff is simple, which is a lot of it. But when the lines get more complicated, I don’t necessarily know how to read them. Not that I’ve put much focus on it. But it would be good if someone recommended the best book or source for doing so.

[Jonah]

It seems in that case it is more about idiomatic reading…
not reading exactly every note but to be able to read essential as a guideline.

if so.. the only way then is to understand and hear better harmonic/key relations and essential melodic turnarounds and be able to see/hear it in the score

But it is hard to advise any practical approach without being able to communicate and see what is going on in reality

[ccroft]

...Not that I’ve put much focus on it. But it would be good if someone recommended the best book or source for doing so.

This one seems to be highly regarded around here. I've seen it mentioned a few times : The Bellson Book

I used The Starer Book, but can't compare to the Bellson so don't know which is 'better'.

I think if you put the time in with either you'll get a lot better at reading actual music. The one I know starts slow, and before long things start making a lot more sense.

[Kirk Garrett]

This one seems to be highly regarded around here. I've seen it mentioned a few times : The Bellson Book

I used The Starer Book, but can't compare to the Bellson so don't know which is 'better'.

I think if you put the time in with either you'll get a lot better at reading actual music. The one I know starts slow, and before long things start making a lot more sense.

Both books look useful. Thank you!


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[rpjazzguitar]

This one seems to be highly regarded around here. I've seen it mentioned a few times : The Bellson Book

I used The Starer Book, but can't compare to the Bellson so don't know which is 'better'.

I think if you put the time in with either you'll get a lot better at reading actual music. The one I know starts slow, and before long things start making a lot more sense.

The Bellson book does not have any melody. It's all one note, afaik.
So, it isolates rhythm. Didn't work well for me, but others swear by it.

The book I recommended, Rhythms Complete is less complete for rhythms, but you'll also learn to read notes all over the neck.

[sgosnell]

It seems to me that reading music is much like reading text. I'm not proficient enough at reading music to make much of a comment, because I just haven't practiced it that much. I can read the notes, but not a sequence at a time. When I read text, I don't read letter by letter, but rather a word or a phrase or more at once, effortlessly, because I've been reading text a lot, since before I started school. I learned musical notes in grade school, where we had very basic music lessons, but just knowing that spaces between the lines are f-a-c-e, and the lines are e-g-b-d-f isn't enough. It takes daily practice, for a long time, to be able to do what I would like to do, but my life has had other priorities, and still does. I'm just not willing to put in the time and work that is required, because it's not that high on my priority list. I wish there were shortcuts, but I don't know of any. I can read well enough to find the notes I can't get by ear, but not at speed. It seems like reading a foreign language, especially with a non-Roman alphabet. I can read Korean, but slowly, character by character, not like English. I haven't practiced enough.

[Bobby Timmons]

Reading rhythms is easy.

But reading rhythms in real moving time when you're playing with a bass player and drummer is hard.

If you screw up they're not going to stop.

I think people get where I'm going with this. I've practiced a couple of hours this morning.

The main hang up is getting hung on rhythms that tie into the next measure, not seeing ahead, and playing a wrong note and then you play wrong intervals from there.

I just need to get used to skipping entire measures and landing on a safe spot.

It's important to note that only elite readers can sight read something on the spot and have it sound performance quality.. The vast majority of pro music is created, performed, recorded, by musicians who have already learned and internalized the tune. So.. I think it's more valuable to just be able to figure out the tune correctly by reading it. Sight reading is more a work in progress. Unless you plan on becoming a session musician or an orchestra member, you don't need to have it completely together.

[pauln]

...a problem with is playing melodies I know
...of a song I have heard before
...I'm really focused on the written key, notes, and accidentals

I'm also confused or not clear on this. For a problem playing a melody you know, i would ask what you mean by "know"? Same for songs you've "heard before"; primarily, how much of "know" is independent internalization and how much is dependent reliance on the book? (Full disclosure - I've never used a book; my "know" is internalization only)
What I mean is, are you saying you can sing/play the melody or song, but in spite of that you have problems playing (reading) it with others? Or do you mean that you have problems singing or playing (reading) it even when practicing?

[Christian Miller]

I teach children to sight read every day.

While I’m hardly an Adam Goldsmith or John Parricelli (look them up) I have learned a bit from being occasionally in harms way in London, the Sight reading capital of the world where rehearsal is considered a sign of weakness.

It’s all the same process. The biggest thing is to keep moving rather than getting hung up on mistakes; which is of course exactly how they learn reading words - you puzzle out an unfamiliar word, right? Doesn’t work for music, you are better off not playing it at all and keeping moving in an ensemble, and come back and puzzle out the bits you mucked up later.

So that takes a lot of mental realignment for the kids.

Sight reading is about keeping going and not losing your place. Rhythmic accuracy is priority because you are less likely to get lost. Dynamics too are very important unless you want to stand out for all the wrong reasons. Accurate pitches are a bit of bonus (I half joke.)

Of course great readers nail it most of the time. But that’s purely experience. Hang in there. The only way to learn to read better is to read - A LOT.


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[ccroft]

Of course great readers nail it most of the time. But that’s purely experience. Hang in there. The only way to learn to read better is to read - A LOT.

That's the truth. Bone-headed determination wins the day. Also: use it or lose it. I've mostly lost it now.

The Starer book helped me a lot with syncopation and subdivision. And that thing the OP said about getting tripped up at a tie over a bar line. Lots of recognizable phrases are longer than 2 bars.

I did rhythm only for like 20 mins a day, sight reading simple violin & clarinet books for 20 (meaning don't memorize them), and then putting rhythm and pitch together with heads and the Leavitt books.

I like the pitchless approach to rhythm study. You can do it anywhere without using up guitar playing time. Never did something like Christian's phonetics, but that looks good and is basically the same idea: learn the rhythms.

[deacon Mark]

I teach children to sight read every day.

While I’m hardly an Adam Goldsmith or John Parricelli (look them up) I have learned a bit from being occasionally in harms way in London, the Sight reading capital of the world where rehearsal is considered a sign of weakness.

It’s all the same process. The biggest thing is to keep moving rather than getting hung up on mistakes; which is of course exactly how they learn reading words - you puzzle out an unfamiliar word, right? Doesn’t work for music, you are better off not playing it at all and keeping moving in an ensemble, and come back and puzzle out the bits you mucked up later.

So that takes a lot of mental realignment for the kids.

Sight reading is about keeping going and not losing your place. Rhythmic accuracy is priority because you are less likely to get lost. Dynamics too are very important unless you want to stand out for all the wrong reasons. Accurate pitches are a bit of bonus (I half joke.)

Of course great readers nail it most of the time. But that’s purely experience. Hang in there. The only way to learn to read better is to read - A LOT.


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Super advice because sight reading is just that, no going back. No waiting and no redoing you keep reading through it with mistakes or no sound. The only way to practice sight reading is to keep moving. Once you go back and correct you are no longer sight reading. Also, rhythmic figures over time become easier to do and you simply manage them from experience. It is also possible to cheat by making some figure easier even if not correct. The cardinal rule in sight reading is moving forward and not getting lost. What notes you got right are what they are, and the goal is to get as many as possible. Also, do not sight read anything you know by melody and can hear. Read single line notes from clarinet or Bach inventions. Finally start tackling bebop heads for rhythmic sight reading using obscure bebop heads.

Sight reading is like eating an elephant, you got to eat in small meals till you polish it off.