Tim Lerch on Reharm

[Liarspoker]

We had a great Deep Dive with Tim Lerch last Saturday.

Tim is such a nice guy, very knowledgeable too.

Here is a short clip where Tim talks about the tonic, subdominant and dominant families and more. Enjoy!!

[nyc chaz]

Why is this video showing Tim playing left handed?I'm assuming it's some kind of YT bug.

[pawlowski6132]

Why is this video showing Tim playing left handed?I'm assuming it's some kind of YT bug.

He's obviously not playing left-handed and it's obviously not a YouTube bug. Come on

[nyc chaz]

Is this video showing his right hand fingering the fretboard.I don't know about you but i call that left handed.Come on back at you.

[garybaldy]

I first heard the min7b5, as used at the beginning of this vid, by Martin Taylor doing Don't Get Around Much Anymore in the 90s.
I didn't know about reharmonisation then and thought WTH is that? and why does that sound so good?
Works well at the start of Pennies from heaven.

[pcjazz]

Zoom will do that unless you set it to “mirror”.

[pawlowski6132]

Is this video showing his right hand fingering the fretboard.I don't know about you but i call that left handed.Come on back at you.

it APPEARS that he's playing left handed but he's not.

[garybaldy]

We had a great Deep Dive with Tim Lerch last Saturday.

Tim is such a nice guy, very knowledgeable too.

Here is a short clip where Tim talks about the tonic, subdominant and dominant families and more. Enjoy!!

Great post.
To all the de - railers - Time to get back on topic please!!

[nyc chaz]

it APPEARS that he's playing left handed but he's not.

That's why it is YT causing it which is what said.Calm down next time and try not to be so nasty in your response.

[pawlowski6132]

That's why it is YT causing it which is what said.Calm down next time and try not to be so nasty in your response.

It's not YT. Try not to be so...biting my tongue. Drop it. You don't know what you're talking about.

[pawlowski6132]

Great post.
To all the de - railers - Time to get back on topic please!!

Agreed.

Can someone explain why he says the #IV m7b5 acts as a tonic??

For example in the key of G, a Dbm7b5 doesn't sound good in a II V I subbing for the tonic.

I think of Dbm7b5 => Bbm6 or Eb9 type of sound but not a tonic.

[nyc chaz]

It's not YT. Try not to be so...biting my tongue. Drop it. You don't know what you're talking about.

Get some help,to get this worked up over my original post is absurd to say the least.Continue fighting on because i am out.

[Tal_175]

Agreed.

Can someone explain why he says the #IV m7b5 acts as a tonic??

For example in the key of G, a Dbm7b5 doesn't sound good in a II V I subbing for the tonic.

I think of Dbm7b5 => Bbm6 or Eb9 type of sound but not a tonic.

Dbm7b5 is the tritone substitution of Gmaj.
The notes are: Db Fb Abb Cb
Enharmonically: C# E G B
That's G6#11. Would work particularly well as the Lydian chord in Dmajor.

[pawlowski6132]

Dbm7b5 is the tritone substitution of Gmaj.
The notes are: Db Fb Abb Cb
Enharmonically: C# E G B
That's G6#11. Would work particularly well as the Lydian chord in Dmajor.

So, I see what you're saying but...isn't the Tritone used to create tension and dissonance? Isn't it used to LEAD to the tonic?? Not be the tonic.

In other words, if you sub the tritone of chord, it needs to resolve to something. Right??

[Tal_175]

So, I see what you're saying but...isn't the Tritone used to create tension and dissonance? Isn't it used to LEAD to the tonic?? Not be the tonic.

In other words, if you sub the tritone of chord, it needs to resolve to something. Right??

You are talking about tritone sub of a dominant perhaps? But here it is a major chord.

A substitution always preserves the fundamental role of a chord, whether it's tritone substitution or other kind of substitution. Otherwise it's not a substitution. Tritone of a dominant is a dominant (a more edgy one). Tritone of a major chord is a major chord (again a more edgy one), but that doesn't mean it functions as a dominant and needs to resolve.

[pawlowski6132]

You are talking about tritone sub of a dominant perhaps? But here it is a major chord.

A substitution always preserves the fundamental role of a chord, whether it's tritone substitution or other kind of substitution. Otherwise it's not a substitution. Tritone of a dominant is a dominant (a more edgy one). Tritone of a major chord is a major chord (again a more edgy one), but that doesn't mean it functions as a dominant and needs to resolve.

10-4. Up to now, I've only heard about a tri-tone sub being used as a primary or secondary sub and just assumed that was the only appropriate use of a tri-tone sub.

[garybaldy]

Bars 7 and 8 of Martin Taylors chord melody of Don't Get Around.... in Dmajor.
On the word 'more' :
| Abm7b5/Gm7/ | D(f# in bass) /// |

[Irishmuso]

Great post.
To all the de - railers - Time to get back on topic please!!

Tim gives the example of Just Friends going to Bbm7 - Eb7. He doesn't agree with any analysis of this as ii-V in Ab. His reason is that in terms of Ted Greene's 'expanded scale' idea, those two chords can be considered as the iv and the bVI7 of F. I can't really disagree with that especially when he qualifies it by contextualising it in terms of arranging.

But from the point of view of improvising over that tune, it doesn't seem as helpful as treating Bbm7 - Eb7 as a ii-V of Ab especially when we consider that Ab is a minor third above F which to my ears, is usually a good thing.

Am I missing something important from Tim's analysis?

[Tal_175]

Tim gives the example of Just Friends going to Bbm7 - Eb7. He doesn't agree with any analysis of this as ii-V in Ab. His reason is that in terms of Ted Greene's 'expanded scale' idea, those two chords can be considered as the iv and the bVI7 of F. I can't really disagree with that especially when he qualifies it by contextualising it in terms of arranging.

But from the point of view of improvising over that tune, it doesn't seem as helpful as treating Bbm7 - Eb7 as a ii-V of Ab especially when we consider that Ab is a minor third above F which to my ears, is usually a good thing.

Am I missing something important from Tim's analysis?

Bbmin Eb7 is the backdoor progression. It happens in many tunes including Rhythm Changes.
Literally no one would say it's ii V to Ab, lol.
Tim Lerch is strawmanning here a bit I think.

[Irishmuso]

Bbmin Eb7 is the backdoor progression. It happens in many tunes including Rhythm Changes.
Literally no one would say it's ii V to Ab, lol.
Tim Lerch is strawmanning here a bit I think.

I don't know if he is. He seems quite animated about it. I agree no one would say that its ii V to Ab, for the simple reason it doesn't go to Ab. But treating it as if it was a ii V while improvising seems as valid as treating it as the backdoor progression, even if you're not a sax player

[Liarspoker]

I agree no one would say that its ii V to Ab, for the simple reason it doesn't go to Ab.

Playing devil's advocate here but a ii V that doesn't resolve is just a non-functioning dominant (so you shouldn't alter it).

[supersoul]

The harmonic motion in Just Friends, the A section, I just see as being chromatically decending minor tonalities.

The written chords: BbM7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | FM7 | Abm7 Db7 |
can be thought of as: Gm/Bb | Bbm | Am/F | Abm

Instead of trying to figure out how Abm -> Db7 relates to the key of F. It's just part of the descending motion. It's all headed back down to Gminor (the first chord of the B section)

[Jonah]

Agreed.

Can someone explain why he says the #IV m7b5 acts as a tonic??

For example in the key of G, a Dbm7b5 doesn't sound good in a II V I subbing for the tonic.

I think of Dbm7b5 => Bbm6 or Eb9 type of sound but not a tonic.

Lydian tonic.
In G major
C# (#11), B (3), E (13), G (root).

If it sounds as a tonic or not depends on the context and chord position, voice-leading etc.
It contains only 4 notes - two of them belong to the root triad of G
And E-G-B makes an E minor triad which is very close relative to tonic in jazz context.

C# - E makes a C# minor triad, which is quite out of G.

The question is if you can make it sound tonic putting proper notes in proper context.

Another important point: to me jazz harmonic context is quite open originally due to the nature of the genre and later modal expansions made it almost totally free... you can sub practically anything for anything and often it is just the matter of conviction and confidence.

For some (and especially for the player) omitted bass root is still implied in inner hearing, for others there is not enough context to hear it... there will always be someone who says: I do not hear it like that...

[supersoul]

Lydian tonic.
In G major
C# (#11), B (3), E (13), G (root).

If it sounds as a tonic or not depends on the context and chord position, voice-leading etc.
It contains only 4 notes - two of them belong to the root triad of G
And E-G-B makes an E minor triad which is very close relative to tonic in jazz context.

C# - E makes a C# minor triad, which is quite out of G.

The question is if you can make it sound tonic putting proper notes in proper context.


Another important point: to me jazz harmonic context is quite open originally due to the nature of the genre and later modal expansions made it almost totally free... you can sub practically anything for anything and often it is just the matter of conviction and confidence.

For some (and especially for the player) omitted bass root is still implied in inner hearing, for others there is not enough context to hear it... there will always be someone who says: I do not hear it like that...

In her tune "Mother of the Dead Man" Carla Bley uses the #ivm7b5 IM7 move in both directions.

at bar 5 it goes Gmaj7#11/B to C#m7b5


and then later, at bar 13 it goes the other direction, from C#m7b5 to Gmaj7#11.

I often voice it as Gmaj6 to C#m7b5
3x545x
x4545x

[Jonah]

In her tune "Mother of the Dead Man" Carla Bley uses the #ivm7b5 IM7 move in both directions.

at bar 5 it goes Gmaj7#11/B to C#m7b5


and then later, at bar 13 it goes the other direction, from C#m7b5 to Gmaj7#11.

I often voice it as Gmaj6 to C#m7b5
3x545x
x4545x

The tricky thing is that G is not tonic here. The whole tune is more like a bluesy modal harmony though it involves typical function ii - Vs (I think it is quite common for many modal tunes of the period (Along Comes Betty, Falling Grace have also lots of functional ii-v's but in the context it is a modal harmony, these ii-v's are more like separate 'harmonic shells' there)

In the first case C#m7b5 to F# sounds like a typical minor ii-V (to B minor - though it skips resolution it still sounds very typically).

Though partly it really works a bit as a sub for G because this is a repeat of the phrase and that turnaround shows up in place of G chord.
But it is also very typical for functional harmony as modulation.
In C major it could be like I - I - IV - IV// I - I - vii7b5 (ii in a minor) - III7 (V in a minor) => a minor

Also natural major VI chord followed by ii - V7 is very typical for European traditional/urban/romance tunes in minor keys as a half cadence turnaround
In a minor: F - B7b5 - E7...

In the 2nd case it looks interesting. I check the records and I do not hear it distinctively
To me this G sounds more like an approach to F#7 (which works as kind of 'fake' V chord here)
So basically the same turnaround in minor only ii is skipped.
But G here really sounds more like a bass added to C#m7b5

The whole tune is a mix of blues/minor blues/chanson vibe in more modal layout