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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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06-23-2024 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by alez
Proposal rejected! :-)
It’s an E13 chord because of the way it is ordered - in thirds. The A is usually considered an ‘avoid note’ and therefore avoided in actual chord voicings drawn for these notes*. For solo lines it’s perfectly fine.
The E mixolydian scale or as I prefer to call it, the dominant scale (I ain’t calling nothing no Greek lol), is a stepwise ordering of the same pitch set.
(Don’t ask me what I’d call an ordering in any other interval because I have literally no idea.)
For me there’s value in distinguishing the two things.
*Takes off the pedant’s hat*
The actual reason I included the A is to make clear that it isn’t a E13#11 sound. Which you could also use, perhaps!
Anyway, I briefly discuss this at 6:08 onwards and give some examples
* except for Brad Mehldau and Bill Frisell
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
In the same way as dominant/mixo scale is mode V of major/ionian but there’s value in dealing with the same pitches from the dominant/V for playing bop etc. it’s easier to get the right harmonic/rhythmic emphasis for lines working off the 5th.
There’s not a good name for the harmonic minor equivalent. Mixo b9b13 is horrid (but standard for Berklee I think), Phrygian dominant is better imo (but jazz geeks turn their nose up at it.)
Especially if you add in the #9 (from natural minor) you get a very useful jazz scale. Reg characterised that as a sort of ‘proto altered scale’ which I like. It also emerges from Barry Harris minor ii V I line construction and can be seen in many tunes and solos.
I’d like to call it the minor dominant but I don’t think people would know what I was on about.
I mean even less than normal.
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Harmonic Minor (or it's modes) is not even on Steve Swallow's scale list:
Attachment 113222
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Indeed notation software won't include an A in their output if you input E13.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I totally don't understand what's wrong with "5th mode of harmonic minor".
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I don’t hear no Plato arguing to ban no mixob9b13 from the plebs*
I will accept dominant b9 b13 may be a pretty good name because at least it goes with the chord symbol.
*due to the intense sense of problematic cultural stereotyping it promotes among the lower orders
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Originally Posted by alez
If you don’t include an A it messes up the third structure. Besides Wes plays that arp all the time.
Point taken re. #11 and I really enjoyed the video and this 4-fold connection between chord qualities, thanks a lot.
I totally don't understand what's wrong with "5th mode of harmonic minor".
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You all just dislike adopting anything that comes from Berklee Seriously though, I think the way harmony is taught there may have changed significantly over the years. I have a copy of what I believe to be their standard book for this stuff at present, which came out a few years ago only, and I like it very much, maybe the things you don't like have been changing over the years and are no longer there. (It's a new text, not just the latest edition of an older one.)
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
(some stuff I put down for a video, I don't just transcribe stuff to make a point on JGO.)
(yet)
Bird liked this sound a lot.
TBF, I think Steve Swallow's (and for that matter Berklee in the 70s) main focus in on post-modal music anyway, they'd moved on from bop. HM stuff is rarer in that music.
But it's all over older jazz like... well, All of Me.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
“I used fifth mode of harmonic minor on Billie’s Bounce”
- Charlie Parker
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ok P. but call me skeptical, I'd like to see the source of that quote.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Originally Posted by alez
I'll use the Berklee terms if I know what they are because that's lingua franca. I will even say mixolydian scale lol. It's important for me to be understood, believe it or not.
OTOH the Berklee chord scale type syllabus is its own thing. It's a way of doing things. It sounds a certain way. There's a distinct Berklee way of playing jazz. It's a style.
It doesn't encapsulate the way everyone played/plays jazz, and I find the exceptions interesting. The music itself and its history is very rich, much richer than a systematic harmony syllabus could ever hope to be. But such things are not without value.
The problem is when people think this stuff is more important than it is.
Seriously though, I think the way harmony is taught there may have changed significantly over the years. I have a copy of what I believe to be their standard book for this stuff at present, which came out a few years ago only, and I like it very much, maybe the things you don't like have been changing over the years and are no longer there. (It's a new text, not just the latest edition of an older one.)
One thing, as I understand it, that has changed is in the 70s Berklee was not in the business of teaching jazz. It was in the business of expanding musician's musical horizons and helping them make professional connections as a "finishing school" as jimmy blue note put it, and its focus was on the contemporary jazz of the time (i.e. fusion, post modal etc). The OG Real Book gives a good picture of that. It's full of Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, Denny Zeitlin, stuff like that. As much of that as standards. The harmonic approach, chord scale theory, all that stuff needs to understood in this context.
(The problem is a lot of that stuff got shoehorned into the function of being a 'how to jazz' method via various popular methods and books. It's not 'how to jazz' it's 'how to stack notes on chords'.)
These days, as I understand it, Berklee is very much in the business of teaching jazz to students who need it and have signed up for it. The world has changed,. Players no longer get early training on the bandstand, they no longer pick up straight ahead jazz via the community and informal aural learning like Reg did, for instance. They have to be taught it. It would be pretentious of me to say I know much about the syllabus for that. But transcription is a BIG part of it for sure.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Maybe Chicago Manual or AP (or whatever the heck you Brits use) is a better analogy.
Lots of guidelines for how to communicate what you know, none of which are terribly important so long as everyone’s using the same ones
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
In seriousness that's a profound point about musical analysis. No of course not, and anyone claiming they know what Bird was thinking when he played x is probably selling something. (I mean, I'm selling something, but I'm bad at it.)
So in each of those examples excepting a couple of chromatic lower neighbours we do kind of have most if not all of the notes of the G harmonic minor scale in each case. Occam's razor would suggest the simplest explanation is most likely to be the case, so it seems compelling to me that it's harmonic minor.
Furthermore, I would say that there are more obvious examples of Bud and Bird - and other bop era musicians - literally playing a straight harmonic minor scale through those chords, so it seems reasonable to assume they had that sound in mind. These scales have been around for hundreds of years, and whatever you call them*, they are part of the DNA or Western harmony, which is one of the constituent elements of jazz.
OTOH I doubt he was thinking literally "mode V harmonic minor". I don't think they had that sort of terminology back then. He would have known what a harmonic minor was though. He played scales, etudes etc. That terminology has been around since the C19. Modes of the melodic minor? Not so much.
The man who probably checked out as much Bird as anyone alive or dead, Barry Harris, talked about "running the F7 scale to the third of D7", which gives you same notes with the right harmonic emphasis. Again, I doubt Bird had that concept. It's an analysis.
*this may be a bit of a rabbit hole. Did Bach have the term 'harmonic minor?'
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I’ve also read numerous times (accurate, I’m not sure) that Bird played and listened to a good bit of Bach, in which case those pitches in a minor cadence would’ve been his vibe for sure, regardless of what he called them.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
And then there's stuff like this that he was checking out:
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"BTW, there's a clear b13 there too, in case you missed it."
Played over the IIm7b5 chord (b9th), not the V7 chord. This is, the b9th of the IIm7 chord = b13th of the V7 chord. Like I said, b9th is commonplace over those chords and it would come to mind without reference to any particular scale.
And I've never seen an interview with Bird in which he discussed music theory.
"this may be a bit of a rabbit hole. Did Bach have the term 'harmonic minor?"
I seem to recall a discussion here re: the ascending/descending melodic minor scale that led down such a rabbit hole - don't think we ever saw, let alone caught, a rabbit either.
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You guys are goin to town with the pedantry.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
I put the A-7b5 here is to indicate the context of a minor II-V-I to G- more than 'he's playing over these chords'. Maybe I should just lose the A-7b5 for the video, to make it clearer.
b9 on IIm7b5 is considered a bit of 'funny one' in CST FWIW (probs not much.)
But anyway, that's just what I think from listening to Bird and Bud play over those chords and it jumped out at me right away back in 2011 or whenever I started doing it in anger. Boom, harmonic minor.
And I've never seen an interview with Bird in which he discussed music theory.
You can call it Basil the Friendly Octopus if you like, but you won't necessarily be clear to other people. Harmonic minor is understood by most musicians. And I do get the feeling Parker would have known what one is in fact.
I seem to recall a discussion here re: the ascending/descending melodic minor scale that led down such a rabbit hole - don't think we ever saw, let alone caught, a rabbit either.
(Of course in jazz improv it is used totally differently.)
In Bach's time, in so much as I understand it, they would simply see all of this stuff as chromatic alterations of the prevailing mode. But the way they conceptualised these things is generally .... a bit weird?Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-23-2024 at 07:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by pauln
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