All of Me - A7 on measure #28 (9th?)

[alez]

Hi, Gents.

Would you include a 9th on that chord and why?

Possible choices:

• Natural 9th. An odd choice but the melody emphasises it strongly (which is the very reason for my question). On the plus side, it's diatonic to the key. On the negative side, it's the leading, and some texts suggest that's best reserved for a small number of specific uses IIRC.
• Flat 9th. Potential clash with melody?
• Sharp 9th. OK?
• No 9th. OK?

Thoughts?

[brent.h]

I'm assuming you're asking about comping.

By default, I wouldn't even bother with playing the 9th or any upper extension. Simple shells and triads are my style.

If I really had to use the 9th, I would use any 9th depending on my mood; as long as I keep its volume low and not have it interfere with the soloist, that's good enough.

I try not to overthink it.

[setemupjoe]

Melody is usually the last word here. Using a 9th on the VI7 chord is not unusual. Pennies from Heaven is another example.

However the b9 has become more popular on the VI7 so for soloing over changes you can use either.

The VI7 naturally sounds like a 9(b13) chord which I quite like. Over A7 think D melodic minor.

[alez]

Melody is usually the last word here. Using a 9th on the VI7 chord is not unusual. Pennies from Heaven is another example.

However the b9 has become more popular on the VI7 so for soloing over changes you can use either.

The VI7 naturally sounds like a 9(b13) chord which I quite like. Over A7 think D melodic minor.

This has all I wanted to know and some additional food for thought. Thanks so much.

Pennies from Heaven is a great example indeed.

As for your last sentence, understood: just like the chord A7 is all diatonic to the key with the exception of tone C#, so is D melodic minor.

[Bobby Timmons]

Imo, assuming you're not worrying about clashing with the melody, you just have to experiment with different extensions and color tone / chromaticism systems to get a sense of how they all sound and in turn build instinct on where to use them.

[pingu]

also try Bbo type stuff there

[alez]

I'm assuming you're asking about comping.

By default, I wouldn't even bother with playing the 9th or any upper extension. Simple shells and triads are my style.

If I really had to use the 9th, I would use any 9th depending on my mood; as long as I keep its volume low and not have it interfere with the soloist, that's good enough.

I try not to overthink it.

Apologies for not noticing this post.

Yes, sorry, I should've given a context. I'm interested in two scenarios, 1) comping on the head (melody), 2) comping on the solo choruses.

Thanks!

Imo, assuming you're not worrying about clashing with the melody, you just have to experiment with different extensions and color tone / chromaticism systems to get a sense of how they all sound and in turn build instinct on where to use them.

I'm sort of wondering about this potential clash, yes, as per:

Flat 9th. Potential clash with melody?

also try Bbo type stuff there

Point taken. I guess that takes us to a wider context, that of substitution. In terms of A7-with-a-9th, the one that relates the most to Bbdim7 is A7b9.

Pennies from Heaven is another example.

I've also found Satin Doll measure #4.

[alez]

The VI7 naturally sounds like a 9(b13) chord which I quite like. Over A7 think D melodic minor.

I've been playing a few VI7 chords as VI9b13 on the piano. I like how they sound in a progression. I've voiced them either 1-b7-3-b13-9 or 1-3-b7-9-b13 because I've been taught to lay chords like that lately.

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm sort of wondering about this potential clash, yes.

For dominant chords, I have 4 levels of color tones. You want to add color tones to many of your chords or else it doesn't sound jazzy.

Level 1 is 9th and/or 13th. Level 2 is b9 and diminished stuff. I'm in the habit of usually using level 1 and 2. Level 3 is #9 #5. And Level 4 is #11 stuff with any other color tones. I think the #11 is the crunchiest and doesn't really blend, it's if you purposely want a crunchy sound that stands out.

Yeah, if you're worried about clashing with the A melody note while playing color tones in the A7 then start with the natural 9th and/or 13th.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

For dominant chords, I have 4 levels of color tones. You want to add color tones to many of your chords or else it doesn't sound jazzy.

Level 1 is 9th and/or 13th. Level 2 is b9 and diminished stuff. I'm in the habit of usually using level 1 and 2. Level 3 is #9 #5. And Level 4 is #11 stuff with any other color tones. I think the #11 is the crunchiest and doesn't really blend, it's if you purposely want a crunchy sound that stands out.

Yeah, if you're worried about clashing with the A melody note while playing color tones in the A7 then start with the natural 9th and/or 13th.

I consider the flat five the key to bebop. Why did you not mention it? Thought you were a Monk fan ...

[Bobby Timmons]

Well sharp #11. But yes, I agree about the b5 and Monk and bebop. b5 or #11 and whole tone is absolutely lesson 1 to sounding Monk.

[alez]

I've been playing a few VI7 chords as VI9b13 on the piano. I like how they sound in a progression. I've voiced them either 1-b7-3-b13-9 or 1-3-b7-9-b13 because I've been taught to lay chords like that lately.

I just realised this has two tritones a major third apart

For dominant chords, I have 4 levels of color tones. You want to add color tones to many of your chords or else it doesn't sound jazzy.

Level 1 is 9th and/or 13th. Level 2 is b9 and diminished stuff. I'm in the habit of usually using level 1 and 2. Level 3 is #9 #5. And Level 4 is #11 stuff with any other color tones. I think the #11 is the crunchiest and doesn't really blend, it's if you purposely want a crunchy sound that stands out.

A very interesting way to look at this. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, if you're worried about clashing with the A melody note while playing color tones in the A7 then start with the natural 9th and/or 13th.

The tone that the melody emphasises is B. The same is true for the other tunes mentioned so far, that's Pennies and Satin Doll.

[Bobby Timmons]

I played different extensions and here's what I came up with from least to most crunchy:

1: Natural 9 only is the safest choice and fits with the melody.
2. Adding the 13th brings in some crunch but still sounds tactful.
3. 7#5 and notes from whole tone. B is part of A7 whole tone. Starting to sound Monkish.
4. #11 (13). Way more crunchy and Monkish.
5. b9 or #9 in addition to the B melody note. Out there crunchy.

[Mick-7]

I played different extensions and here's what I came up with from least to most crunchy:

1: Natura 9 only is the safest choice and fits with the melody.
2. Adding the 13th brings in some crunch but still sounds tactful.
3. 7#5 and notes from whole tone. B is part of A7 whole tone. Starting to sound Monkish.
4. #11. Way more crunchy and Monkish.
5. b9 or #9 in addition to the B melody note. Out there crunchy.

I'm sure you know this, Bobby, but #11th cannot be equated with b5th, #11 implies that the chord voicing contains the natural 5th (lydian), and it can be a very pretty chord.

For example: Cmaj.7#11: C-E-G-B-F# ->> x-3-2-0-0-2 (or) 0-3-4-0-0-0

But you're probably thinking of Dominant sounds like the diminished scale/chord (7b9) which has both the #11 (b5th) and natural 5th.

[alez]

I played different extensions and here's what I came up with from least to most crunchy:

1: Natural 9 only is the safest choice and fits with the melody.
2. Adding the 13th brings in some crunch but still sounds tactful.
3. 7#5 and notes from whole tone. B is part of A7 whole tone. Starting to sound Monkish.
4. #11 (13). Way more crunchy and Monkish.
5. b9 or #9 in addition to the B melody note. Out there crunchy.

Makes sense Thanks.

From a chord perspective only (i.e. aside of considerations to do with melody, chord being a VI, etc.): it's interesting how the b9b13 seems to sound crunchier than the 9b13. It looks like the b9 alone makes the chord crunchier than the 9b13 extra tritone. I guess the b9 interval (between the root and the b9) stands out more than said tritone to my present ear.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ You're welcome.

#11 can not be equated with b5, #11 implies that the chord voicing contains the natural 5th.

Ya ma.

Haha jk, I'll remember that guideline.

[rpjazzguitar]

If you play an A7, the audience will hear A9, because of the B in the melody.

Putting a Bb or a C at the top of the chord is likely to clash with the melody and may confuse a singer.

For comping, it depends on the harmonic area of the band. If it's a 40s type of sound, then a straight A7 may be best. If you're going for something more harmonically challenging there are a great many choices, not just the usual altered 5s and 9s, but reharming the tune, e.g. play an Ebm7 instead of A7, to offer one simple example. The chord before could be Em7 and the chord after is Dm7, so it will probably sound ok.

[Christian Miller]

If you are comping, think of the melody. Best to keep it simple if in doubt. Soloists need space.

If you are soloing - you have a lot of freedom. E13 type sounds are not actually unusual.

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[Christian Miller]

For comping, it depends on the harmonic area of the band. If it's a 40s type of sound, then a straight A7 may be best..

Extended and altered dominants were commonplace by the 1940’s

OTOH straight dominant 7ths are common in bop.

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[Christian Miller]

Makes sense Thanks.

From a chord perspective only (i.e. aside of considerations to do with melody, chord being a VI, etc.): it's interesting how the b9b13 seems to sound crunchier than the 9b13. It looks like the b9 alone makes the chord crunchier than the 9b13 extra tritone. I guess the b9 interval (between the root and the b9) stands out more than said tritone to my present ear.

People do perceive the b9 as highly dissonant. OTOH it is more diatonic that b9 (for E7 it's F in the key of C, so within the C major scale.)

b9 is typical for an applied or secondary dominant tonicisation of a minor chord; so in this case when you treating the E7 as if it is going to the relative minor. (even though the next chord might be A7). This is actually what I mostly play here reflexively. This goes to Bach (oh do shut up Christian) but fr this is a very resolving dark sound, which Bach uses grandly and expressively in his own music, as did the composers after him. But it is obviously conventional.

It's what Bird would often do. The 7b9 sound is often articulated as a dim7 arpeggio in lines. Mixob9b13* scalar lines are also common. See Bird. But Bird wouldn't always use that sound when going to relative minor either - the second bar of Blues for Alice is a good example of an exception.

During the swing era, it seems to me this sound was less used, with the natural 9th being more common.But as with bop, it's not a 100% rule, more a stylistic tendency.

9b13 is a real old school dominant chord. Quite Ellington/Strayhorn. I also opens doors to the whole tone scale, which is a good old fashioned (and Monkish) way to play an altered dominant sound.

*I hate this scale name but people get all hoity toity about Phrygian Dominant lol.

[pamosmusic]

Christian and I had a lengthy duel about this chord starting at post 18 on this thread:

Dorian b5 and Mixolydian b9 scales. Why not?

[pamosmusic]

Or I suppose it was the earlier A7 in m5-6, or 21-22, but still relevant.

[alez]

If you play an A7, the audience will hear A9, because of the B in the melody.

Putting a Bb or a C at the top of the chord is likely to clash with the melody and may confuse a singer.

For comping, it depends on the harmonic area of the band. If it's a 40s type of sound, then a straight A7 may be best. If you're going for something more harmonically challenging there are a great many choices, not just the usual altered 5s and 9s, but reharming the tune, e.g. play an Ebm7 instead of A7, to offer one simple example. The chord before could be Em7 and the chord after is Dm7, so it will probably sound ok.

If you are comping, think of the melody. Best to keep it simple if in doubt. Soloists need space.

If you are soloing - you have a lot of freedom. E13 type sounds are not actually unusual.

I read you. This is very valuable, thanks.

Christian, what's "E13 type sounds"?

People do perceive the b9 as highly dissonant. OTOH it is more diatonic that b9 (for E7 it's F in the key of C, so within the C major scale.)

Also, can you please check the sentence right above? I don't want to miss the point. Looking at the parentheses, I think by "that b9" you meant "than natural 9".

The rest of your post is well understood and I'll be checking Blues for Alice, etc. Thanks. Edit: checked. Absolutely crazy to me, first time ever I see a Bm7. Nothing here ever ends.

If we move the conversation on to E7, there's plenty natural 9, a la melodic minor. Autumn Leaves measure #6, Beautiful Love measure #8... many. At least to my understanding where A minor is C major. Much like on the A7, you find many b9 and many 9 despite the fact that which is diatonic and which isn't is swapped.

9b13 is a real old school dominant chord. Quite Ellington/Strayhorn. I also opens doors to the whole tone scale, which is a good old fashioned (and Monkish) way to play an altered dominant sound.

I haven't thought of the whole tone for a long time. Looks like time to give it a try over some A9.

Christian and I had a lengthy duel about this chord starting at post 18 on this thread:

Dorian b5 and Mixolydian b9 scales. Why not?

Or I suppose it was the earlier A7 in m5-6, or 21-22, but still relevant.

Will check, thanks. Edit: wow, that looks very interesting indeed, thanks a lot.

[Christian Miller]

E13 as in

E G# B D F# (A)* C#

*usually omitted in voicings

Yes ‘that’ was a typo for ‘than’


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[alez]

I would've thought E13 can't have A in it. I propose to call that E mixolydian