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Hello friends,
Being fairly weak on theory,transposing does my head in .
A friend plays Tenor Sax,I play Guitar and we want to play some music together.
I found the sheet ,music to ' I Got Rythm ' and it's written in Bb.I thought great,we're off and away.
She says she will still have to transpose,even though the tune is in Bb
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Oh the pain,the pain ... is she correct ?
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06-26-2024 03:58 AM
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Yes. The tradition is for many wind instruments to be transposed for reading. Tenor sax is in Bb which means if they see a C and play it in their system, it sounds as a Bb. So if they read a chart in Bb, it will sound in Ab. She needs a chart written in C for Bb instruments, not a chart in Bb.
Personally, I would never conform to that bs. I would just learn to read in concert if I played a wind instrument.
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Originally Posted by scout
Hello friends,
She says she will still have to transpose,even though the tune is in Bb .
Oh the pain,the pain ... is she correct ?
Very few sax players offer to transpose in my experience, so for charts like this I've got used to reading the chords as if they were a full tone lower. You can get used to it quite quickly with a bit of practice. Some experienced sax players will at least say it's in C for me but that's Bb for you, especially when there's no chart available but everyone knows or sort of knows the tune.
(I have a friend who plays trombone that can 'flick a switch' in his head and transpose from treble to bass clef, Bb to concert, Eb to concert etc. at will. He says its just practice
)
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Thanks so much Bobby and Irishmuso,
So ... do we play this tune as written, in C... me with the chords.. she with the melody on Sax ?Last edited by scout; 06-26-2024 at 05:01 AM.
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.... and ...
If the above is correct ,will my friend be able to play any tunes on her Tenor sax,as long the tune has a C key signature ?
Or does the tune have to be in C , specific for the tenor sax ?
Thanks for your patience folks ...
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To play in concert pitch, the tenor sax needs to transpose the notes on the sheet up a major second (a tone, example: Bb to C).
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You’ll be reading off two separate pieces of music at all times, or one of you will be transposing. “Bb instrument” has nothing to do with the keys you’re playing in. It just means that they’ll always be reading a whole step above what you’re reading. Originally Posted by scout
Most saxophone players read about as well in concert pitch as they do in their transposition. But the instruments also don’t really work that way. What is concert Bb on a trumpet? It’s everything wide open. So the instrument is usually laid out in a way that the transposition makes the most sense and altering it would be a bit weird.Personally, I would never conform to that bs. I would just learn to read in concert if I played a wind instrument.
Thats not really the case. Obviously depends on who you’re playing with, but for a working sax player, they do it second nature. Think about a rehearsal with a wind band. If the director is addressing one section specifically, then they’ll use the transposed pitch. If they’re addressing the band, then they use concert pitch. So they’ve been switching back and forth since they were in middle school for the most part.Very few sax players offer to transpose in my experience
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Thanks for your inputs folks ..
There's an old saying in Australia ... " I need a cup of tea,a Bex and a good lie down " ... Bex being a pain killer in the days of old
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Life used to be so easy when most things were I -IV -V ...
Thanks again and regards from OZ ... Charlie .
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Woodwinds are based on the Boehm system of fingering. The flute, saxophone, clarinet, oboe, bassoon all use some form of it. Those fingerings correspond to the same note names. So all open holes closed (3 fingers on left and right hands down, no pinky keys) gives you a D. Let up the ring finger of your right hand and you get E, then F, G, etc.... Eric Dolphy played flute (C), bass clarinet (Bb) and alto saxophone (Eb). Same basic fingerings, so it's possible to go back and forth, but you have to transpose.
The fingerings in the Boehm system are always the same. That means when you finger a D on a tenor, it sounds a concert C. When do the same fingering on an alto, it will sound a concert F. There is such a thing as a C-melody saxophone. Ornette famously played on early in his career. But it sounds different from a tenor or an alto. I've never actually seen one in real life.
Hope that makes some sort of sense! I ended up developing the ability to read charts written for Bb instruments (and Eb instruments to a lesser extent). It's only fair, because saxophonists often have to read off a C instrument chart, so they have to transpose.
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Yeah … so to Bobby’s point about not conforming to that BS … he’d find the usual big band doubling to be a bit of a pain in the rear. Originally Posted by supersoul
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no! and it's all part of learning to play with different instruments. If the only chart around is for Bb instruments, you figure out pretty quickly how to transpose on the fly. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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What are we talking about here? Originally Posted by supersoul
I was just saying that part of the reason woodwinds double so easily is because they transpose so that the fingerings are the same regardless of the range of the particular woodwind. So if you decide to play a woodwind and think transpositions are silly, then you’re making doubling much harder on yourself
The same goes for brass, where the harmonic series sits on their concert C in a really easy way.
Transposing is the dumbest solution, except for all the others. It’s one of those things that makes no sense in theory, but works surprisingly well in practice.
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OP, the sax player needs their own Bb sheet. Then you play from your C sheet. The Bb and C I'm talking about aren't the key signature, it's the sound of the written note C.
Unless one of you is mentally transposing, you can't play from the same sheet. I would say each of you should buy a Hal Leonard Real Book.
Bb tenor sax link
C guitar link
I know the real book is like $50, but you'll have that much worth of fun in no time learning tunes with a sax player.
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I'm agreeing with you. I realize that my "no!" could have been read the other way, but I meant it to refer to the idea of throwing out transposed instrument fingerings. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Shouldn't be hard to find Bb charts for your sax player...or yeah, a couple of RealBooks, yours "C instruments" hers "Bb instruments"
That's my least confusing answer Bb concert is a tough key to explain this in, as you're a C instrument playing in Bb and she's a Bb instrument playing in C!
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Ahhh yes. I misconstrued your “no!” Originally Posted by supersoul
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back when..in some recording dates..the sheet music might be in C but a key change could be called to Eb and you better know your keys.
Horn players have no problems with this..keyboards too. Guitarists are not known for their reading skills.
I studied a Howard Roberts sight reading book and worked at it..you HAVE to do daily practice of reading in a different key than the sheet music.
Its those nasty rhythmic lines at high tempos that make you say #@<<** .
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Don't scare the new guy off! He just want's to play a single tune with his friend. Originally Posted by wolflen
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I'm a rebel. When I played guitar, I tuned to D standard because I liked the fatter tone. I learned all the notes in concert even though it was harder and most people still view the notes as if they're in E standard when they tune down. Telling myself the notes I'm playing are different from what they actually are doesn't sit right with me. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I'm almost 'getting it' .
Just one more question please.
I posted ' I got Rythm ' in Bb and Bobby Timmins kindly posted the tune in C .
Does my friend use the C sheet for her Sax .. and I use the Bb sheet for my Guitar chording ? ..
Once again,your patience is appreciated ..
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Flipped. Give them the C one. Your Bb is their C. Originally Posted by scout
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Cheers Allan,
We're having our first play together tomorrow afternoon... we'll see how it all goes..
What do you mean by 'flipped' ?
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I meant you had the sheets backwards. Hope it goes well. If you record anything you should post it here, nobody will roast you. Originally Posted by scout
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Yes. Originally Posted by scout
The keys the sheets are written in. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Again, Mr B's post for reference.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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One more time to be clear OP
Your attachment is for guitar.
Bobby’s attachment is for sax.
This is just a confusing thing, so don’t feel bad. It’s like an Abbot and Costello routine when the concert key is Bb.
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