6th/dim or na?

[Christian Miller]

No idea m8

Do you like the way it sounds?


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[Tal_175]

One of the applications of the 6thdim system is to create movement when playing chords as opposed to relying on static voicings. So yes, in this application you'd have multiple voicings per bar with a smooth, horizontal voice leading.

The voicings are not strict diminished and inversion alternations. You can create original voicings with borrowing. These can be applied to comping, creating chordal phrases, chord-melody arrangements and even single lines.

I work on creating chordal movements a lot (a chord on ever beat or a different rhythms with anticipation etc). Some people treat the 6dim system as the main generative engine to explore movements and voicings. I use it in its more limited form as just one of the tools available to me because I'm more grounded in the traditional harmony in terms of how these things are viewed (passing chords, extensions, voicings, tonicizations). So when I explore movements and voicings, if I'm inclined to name them or mentally organize them, I rely on the concepts of the traditional harmony.

[Bobby Timmons]

No idea m8

Do you like the way it sounds?

Yes, I like the sound and have chosen to make the investment to work it up. If you read the OP, it's asking if others like to use it or if they think it's not viable to them.

[Bobby Timmons]

I work on creating chordal movements a lot. Some people treat the 6dim system as the main generative engine to explore movements and voicings. I use it in its more limited form as just one of the tools available to me because I'm more grounded in the traditional harmony in terms of how these things are viewed (passing chords, extensions, voicings, tonicizations).

I also don't want to throw out my whole pallet of different chord alterations and only alternate main chord, dim, main chord inversion. I want to still use different chords and alterations but with some 6th/dim thrown in also.

[pamosmusic]

I also don't want to throw out my whole pallet of different chord alterations and only alternate main chord, dim, main chord inversion. I want to still use different chords and alterations but with some 6th/dim thrown in also.

This might be a good opportunity to plug Alan’s book. It’s super good and (i don’t think) ultra guitar specific. Found it to be pretty accessible and also goes into some ways of thinking that are applicable to other stuff and not just the sixth diminished thing. Which might be helpful in integrating your other junk into the new stuff and vice versa.

Not sure what’s out there for piano, though I’m sure there’s plenty.

I do always find that to be the tough thing about systems … hard to find openings for them to integrate into whatever other system I have going on

[Christian Miller]

Obligatory post pointing out that block chords are a basic arranging technique used before Barry started in music. Sometimes call George Shearing voicings, mechanical voicings or block chords. They are parallel (more or less) harmonisations of melody lines and afaik sax sections could work these arrangements without need of a score by using what Barry layered called the 6-dim scales. ( this is all based on a discussion I had with a pianist who was researching this stuff for an MA on a night bus back from Ronnies a decade ago.)

Barry uses these practices as a basis for contrary and oblique movements, as well as more complex voicings using borrowings etc.


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[AllanAllen]

I checked out some of the Barry Harris stuff.... I'm completely uninterested in starting over again, I want to add to what I already do. The BH stuff felt like starting over again. So I moved onto something else.

[pamosmusic]

I checked out some of the Barry Harris stuff.... I'm completely uninterested in starting over again, I want to add to what I already do. The BH stuff felt like starting over again. So I moved onto something else.

Yeah … that’s sort of how i felt about drop 2s. They’re beautiful through those scales, but i just flat out don’t use those voicings much. With some creativity though, you can often apply the stuff to the same stuff you’re doing anyway.

I use loads of those Ed Bickert rootless shells, which means (with the root on the high note) 3 7 1 on the 432 strings, or 7 3 1 on the 43x1 strings. So finding those scale harmonized with just three notes on those string sets really helped.

I really want to get into the diads but i don’t feel terribly proficient with the chords yet, so who knows. Maybe when I’m 60.

[Bop Head]

One thing I forgot to mention in this thread (but I think I have mentioned it before):

When I started to listen to jazz around 1990 I would always go to this shop in Munich where they would throw out new rest stock of Books, CDs and vinyl records for quite cheap. Soon I found out that I liked records that had Tommy Flanagan and Hank Jones on them. The Barry Harris stuff and especially the sixth/seventh and diminished system made me finally understand what they were doing.

[wolflen]

What do you mean by "diminished scales"? Because what is usually referred to as half-whole- and whole-half-diminished was part of Barris teachings as well.

Yes..many ways to use diminished scales..I'm using a Scofield approach to them..more fusion based harmonic movement.

[skrohn]

Studying the BH material with the help of Thomas Echols, Labyrinth of Limitations and Chris Parks, Things I Learned from Barry Harris has been very beneficial for me.

The benefits were not seen until I put a considerable amount of time into the studies.
I believe that one has to put in a lot of time and effort before the value of this method or any method can be accessed; specifically any method that has a rich history and many supporters.

It is not for everybody.. nothing is.

[pamosmusic]

This has all prompted me to rewatch the harmony section in the Howard Rees videos.

Sigh.

[Bop Head]

This has all prompted me to rewatch the harmony section in the Howard Rees videos.

Sigh.

Did you ever go through Chris Parks' YT channel?

Or JazzSkills?

[pamosmusic]

Did you ever go through Chris Parks' YT channel?

Oh yeah. Great stuff. That was the way in. After I got the bug, Alan pointed me to the video/book Rees put together because the sequence is intact.

[Bop Head]

Oh yeah. Great stuff. That was the way in. After I got the bug, Alan pointed me to the video/book Rees put together because the sequence is intact.

I added Shan Verma after you had already answered.

[pamosmusic]

I added Shan Verma after you had already answered.

Oh just saw this. Yeah I subscribe to his channel but haven’t watched many of the videos yet.

Honestly with the BH stuff I’m in the mechanical proficiency zone for now I think.

[Bobby Timmons]

Obligatory post pointing out that block chords are a basic arranging technique used before Barry started in music. Sometimes call George Shearing voicings, mechanical voicings or block chords. They are parallel (more or less) harmonisations of melody lines and afaik sax sections could work these arrangements without need of a score by using what Barry layered called the 6-dim scales. (This is all based on a discussion I had with a pianist who was researching this stuff for an MA on a night bus back from Ronnies a decade ago.) Barry uses these practices as a basis for contrary and oblique movements, as well as more complex voicings using borrowings etc.

Yep. I was listening to Bill (Evans) trying to figure out if he does BH and I hear him doing parallel outer voices - the bass doubling the melody - with chords in between. That's a pretty good bang for your buck device. Still dunno if Bill is BH or not. It sounds like he repeats chords, does inner/lower voices, uses diminished, and does a chord with each melody note sometimes.

I checked out some of the Barry Harris stuff.... I'm completely uninterested in starting over again, I want to add to what I already do. The BH stuff felt like starting over again. So I moved onto something else.

Studying the BH material with the help of Thomas Echols, Labyrinth of Limitations and Chris Parks, Things I Learned from Barry Harris has been very beneficial for me.

The benefits were not seen until I put a considerable amount of time into the studies.
I believe that one has to put in a lot of time and effort before the value of this method or any method can be accessed; specifically any method that has a rich history and many supporters.

It is not for everybody.. nothing is.

Yep. I first heard about 6th/dim in 2016 and messed around with a bit but didn't have the ability yet and was like yeah na. Now, the only reason I decided may as well work it in is I was happy with my rhythm, melody, and bass, so may as well work some advanced harmony.

This might be a good opportunity to plug Alan’s book.

Sounds good! Who'z Alan?

[pamosmusic]

Sounds good! Who'z Alan?

Oh … Alan Kingstone of JGO fame

[pcjazz]

Yep. I was listening to Bill (Evans) trying to figure out if he does BH and I hear him doing parallel outer voices - the bass doubling the melody - with chords in between. That's a pretty good bang for your buck device. Still dunno if Bill is BH or not. It sounds like he repeats chords, does inner/lower voices, uses diminished, and does a chord with each melody note sometimes.

Barry was not a fan of Bill Evans. I don’t know whether Evans knew or had an opinion about Barry’s harmonic thinking.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Why would BH not like Bill? Lol

[Christian Miller]

Barry was not a fan of Bill Evans. I don’t know whether Evans knew or had an opinion about Barry’s harmonic thinking.

According to Joel he was…. (secretly)


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[pcjazz]

^ Why would BH not like Bill? Lol

I added a link to my previous post.

[Christian Miller]

^ Why would BH not like Bill? Lol

Different approach to music. Barry had his thing and was pretty wedded to it. There were lots of legendary musicians Barry didn’t really rate, or at least whose direction in music he disagreed with.


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[Bobby Timmons]

Barry was not a fan of Bill Evans. I don’t know whether Evans knew or had an opinion about Barry’s harmonic thinking.

Listening to the video, it sounded like BH was just being resentful about Bill. He didn't list any reasons why he didn't like Bill's music itself.

My negatives about Bill's music are it's extremely aesthetically grandiose (though all greats can be), and it lacks soul/blues feel. Although me switching back to piano and listening to what he actually does, it's so technically formidable across all aspects of melody, rhythm, and harmony. An overlooked aspect of him is I really like his time feel. Super accurate.

[Mick-7]

My negatives about Bill's music are it's extremely aesthetically grandiose (though all greats can be), and it lacks soul/blues feel.

Don't agree at all, sure he's cerebral but he can really swing too.

Barry Harris comes across as a grumpy old fart in that video.