6th/dim or na?

[Bobby Timmons]

Was wondering what everyone's opinion is of 6th/dim and whether they use it or not. I used to think it was excessive and that there are already enough chords in jazz, learn how to play those well first. Then I thought f it, I'm just gonna do it. Especially with my Anti-BH whole tone innovation.

[mr. beaumont]

I use diminished chords to connect things a lot, but I didn't really learn that from studying Barry Harris, I learned it from stealing Wes Montgomery chord licks.

But when I look at Barry's stuff, I think "oh yeah, that sounds right."

[Bop Head]

There are several ways to use those 4 (!) chord scales so the question is too unprecise for me.

And the more interesting question is: Did it have an effect on your playing and if so what effect did it have?

[Bobby Timmons]

^ It's not supposed to be precise. I was wondering how common it is for people to have 6th/dim worked up in any way to where they are proficient with it and can use it to play tunes with chord melody like he would in his demo clips. Just a blunt yes or no.

To me it seems like most folks are a fan but just hypothetically. I've heard a nice clip from graham so that's a grand total of 1 person who uses it. I've heard Reg say he thinks it's excessive and isn't for it. But that's about it. I was wondering what some actual sample data was.

[pamosmusic]

^ It's not supposed to be precise. I was wondering how common it is for people to have 6th/dim worked up in any way to where they are proficient with it and can use it to play tunes with chord melody like he would in his demo clips. Just a blunt yes or no.

For what it’s worth, I think maybe a better question for a keyboard player.

I mean … interesting question for guitar players (I think it’s downright genius and it’s awesome and I’ve gotten some useful things from it, though nowhere close to proficient ).

I just think it’s not something guitar players tend to be extremely fluent with (yes some are). Pianists on the other hand, this is a pretty typical thing to have going on with some proficiency. Mechanical voicings and borrowing are, at any rate, if maybe not the particular BH conception of the scale

[Bobby Timmons]

^ I actually don't really hear 6th/dim from pianists in the wild either. It's a pretty advanced device to chord separately for each beat. But I thought ahh f it, I'll just do it and be in a stop-time sink hole until I get it.

[pamosmusic]

^ I actually don't really hear 6th/dim from pianists in the wild either. It's a pretty advanced device to chord separately for each beat. But I thought ahh f it, I'll just do it and be in a stop-time sink hole until I get it.

Hmm.

In practice, there wouldn’t need to be a chord on every beat. Could just be one chord in a measure and still rely on those 6th diminished devices.

[Bop Head]

So this is my answer:

I first came across the Barry Harris sixth and diminished stuff in the allaboutjazz.com forum that unfortunately got lost through a server crash or something. Must have been 10 to 15 years ago. At that time I did not really get the hang of it. In 2019 I discovered Chris Parks channel and later Alan's book and started to study especially the sixth/seventh diminished stuff excessively. But only recently, maybe last year or so things started to come out in my playing and I can use things spontaneously. And only recently I started to find useful things in borrowing beyond running it mechanically through the scales which is the way it is often showed in superficial YouTube videos. Another thing I still practice excessively is surrounding the notes of one chord with notes from another which is in some cases different from "diatonic scale note above, chromatic below" enclosures. A side effect is that the mechanical practice helped me to develop my already quite good ears further regarding chromaticism and hearing inner voices. And I know all the drop 2 inversions by heart. All that has to be read in the context of 40 years of active and 50+ years of passive ear training and regarding jazz theory coming from the very practically oriented Werner Pöhlert school starting 35 years ago.

Things still to do: Work on thirds, sixths, tenths more and work on the contrary motion stuff.

[Bobby Timmons]

Hmm.

In practice, there wouldn’t need to be a chord on every beat. Could just be one chord in a measure and still rely on those 6th diminished devices.

Yes, you're right. Or one chord per melody note in each phrase that you choose to use it on. It probably shouldn't be used on every beat of the song haha.

[Bop Head]

[...] It's a pretty advanced device to chord separately for each beat. [...]

This is a total misunderstanding. It's not about beats but harmonising melody notes.

I might probably better instead of consulting "the bot" too often to spend some time at Shan Verma's YT channel JazzSkills.

EDIT: I wrote this before I saw your answer to Peter.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Yes, that's a better way to think about it. If you just apply it on all beats it sounds mechanical and impractical.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, you're right. Or one chord per melody note in each phrase that you choose to use it on. It probably shouldn't be used on every beat of the song haha.

This isn’t how it’s necessarily used either. A lot more in there than this.

Actually harmonizing melody notes is a pretty quick way to find the weaknesses in the system.

Comping and chord soloing is the wheelhouse.

[Bobby Timmons]

Yes, it is used to harmonize melody notes. That's one of the main uses. You just have to put a chord to each or most melody notes and get it to sound good whether it falls neatly within the system/parent scale or not. That's how I created my Anti-BH with whole tone. There's no parent scale, you just stick a voicing of whole tone in between the inversions of the main chord. You can even play arps with it.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, it is used to harmonize melody notes. That's one of the main uses. You just have to put a chord to each or most melody notes and get it to sound good whether it falls neatly within the system/parent scale or not. That's how I created my Anti-BH with whole tone. There's no parent scale, you just stick a voicing of whole tone in between the inversions of the main chord.

Not sure what this means.

Anyway … the main purpose of the thing is to create harmonic motion within chords. Sometimes through passing diminished chords, other times borrowing, etc etc.

Harmonizing melody notes is certainly a useful byproduct of that.

My point being that it’s something that you can use just comping one or two chords to the bar. And that a lot of pianists do those passing diminished chords like breathing, the way a guitarist uses side-slipping.

[wolflen]

Not a BH fan but understand his style to a point. I have my own take on using diminished scales.

[Bop Head]

Not a BH fan but understand his style to a point. I have my own take on using diminished scales.

What do you mean by "diminished scales"? Because what is usually referred to as half-whole- and whole-half-diminished was part of Barris teachings as well.

[Bobby Timmons]

My point being that it’s something that you can use just comping one or two chords to the bar. And that a lot of pianists do those passing diminished chords like breathing, the way a guitarist uses side-slipping.

Agree. That's probably one of the most basic uses of BH. I hear that commonly. I almost wouldn't call it BH even though it technically is.

Not sure what this means.

But you have to semanticize me to death and prove that I'm wrong anyway? :P

Anyway … the main purpose of the thing is to create harmonic motion within chords. Sometimes through passing diminished chords, other times borrowing, etc etc. Harmonizing melody notes is certainly a useful byproduct of that.

And explain the basic principle to me even though I already know because I use it? :P

I more think of 6th/dim proficiency as not doing a lil comp of main chord, dim, main chord inversion here and there, but if you can get that harmonic movement within chords going throughout the tune.

[pamosmusic]

And explain the basic principle to me even though I already know because I use it? :P

I more think of 6th/dim proficiency as not doing a lil comp of main chord, dim, main chord inversion here and there, but if you can get that harmonic movement within chords going throughout the tune.

Bobby, it's not obvious from your first handful of posts here that you actually do have a handle on the concept. If you do, then that's my bad. As you were.

And my apologies, but I'm not up-to-the-minute on the "Anti BH" scale you invented, so I hope you can forgive me if I don't actually know how or why that informs what you're talking about here.

[Bobby Timmons]

Okkk.. I use 6th/dim and you don't, but you need to establish yourself as the authority to explain it to me as the incompetent one.. because there was some usual misunderstanding from a couple unclear posts? That sounds a tad aggressive and illogical to me.

[Bop Head]

[...] But you have to semanticize me to death and prove that I'm wrong anyway? :P [...]

Peter's hints at your language being sometimes very unprecise.

You have two alternatives:

1) Ignoring it and keep on being offended (albeit semi-seriously).

2) Taking it seriously and working on it.

As there were many hints of this kind which were the reason for some threads expanding enormously recently I would opt for 2).

And one thing is important: To express yourself really precisely you must be absolutely sure what you are talking about.

Sorry for talking so frankly but this had to be sad. You could react now with the usual "U R mad" or reflect on it regarding it as the constructive criticism intended by me.

[Bobby Timmons]

No, there's a 3rd option. Accepting that misunderstanding is common on forums and not necessarily a fault of any certain poster because posts are necessarily quickly thought out rather than rigorously scrutinized like a college essay.. But that understanding can be reached if the parties are working toward accord. Rather than taking small benign semantic inefficiencies and using them as justification to prove the poster wrong and thereby assume authority lol. Jeez man.

[Bop Head]

No, there's a 3rd option. Accepting that misunderstanding is common on forums and not necessarily a fault of any certain poster because posts are necessarily quickly thought out rather than rigorously scrutinized like a college essay.. But that understanding can be reached if the parties are working toward accord. Rather than taking small benign semantic inefficiencies and using them as justification to prove the poster wrong and thereby assume authority lol. Jeez man.

There is always an excuse for taking responsibility ...

[Bobby Timmons]

I work on being succinct all the time. Misunderstanding after a couple exchanges doesn't necessarily demonstrate a character flaw on someone's behalf lol. You're being ridiculous.

Go back and reread it. Both me and Peter said things which were inaccurate. I said 6th/dim is used on every beat. When it's more used at the musical discretion of the player. He said it's more of a keyboard application. The labyrinth guy seems to be shredding it pretty well.. And he said 6th/dim isn't used for harmonizing melodies, when that is one of the main applications by BH himself in his videos. I don't go personally attack him, I work towards accord. But you have to gang up on me for some reason and try to prove I have a character flaw. That's beyond ridiculous.

[pamosmusic]

That sounds a tad aggressive and illogical to me.

Ah shucks.

You've got me pegged.

[Bobby Timmons]

My friend blille who I originally met on the Duncan forum said he quit coming here because it's prone to drama.