Have You Met Miss Jones and the rest of Virtuoso by Joe Pass

[BartLutsch]

Hi all!

I’ve been working on Have You Met Miss Jones by Joe Pass on his album ’Virtuoso’.

I’m looking for someone who can go over the score with me and explain in detail what happens in every measure. I can pay for this if needed.

I reckon that what he does a lot is building chords on a melody line. The chords he’s playing don’t have a lot to do with the original song. How does he build these chords?

How does Joe Pass’ version correspond to the original song? Does he keep the structure? What does he change?

Any help is appreciated! It’s seems to be hard to find someone who actually understands what is going on theoretically in this song and in the rest of the album.

[deacon Mark]

This my friend is a load question. Joe did know what he was doing but he was working much more intuitive than you and I ever will. All the chords he uses do related to the original tune except he did free up places the make substitutions that work. Remember the old saying......if it sounds good, play it. Sometimes more theory is really just less and forgetting letting the human ear experience.

Joe took liberties with time and bars and worked it like a solo cocktail pianist will dress a tune to expand it. Think here the great Art Tatum. and you will see probably where Joe was taking his thoughts. There are many already done transcriptions of this tune. Get one and print is out. Then print out the tune as in standard fake book form. Tune on the recording and follow along and make sure you get a tempo and follow bars. After doing this over and over you will find the liberties he took. He normally used standard chord subs. In Joe's mind it is Major Chords, Minor chords and dominate chords. That is it he simplified it to the max. IF you can understand what I just said then you can do this however if you don't know chord substitution theory and need addition tutoring.

[Mick-7]

Joe explains his approach to chord melody and chord substitution in his books, Joe Pass Guitar Style and this one:
Chord Encounters for Guitar by Joe Pass

[BartLutsch]

Thanks guys! This will keep me busy for a while ? do you recommend any other books that tackle substitution and reharmonisation ? Preferably by era or style of music.

[garybaldy]

This my friend is a load question. Joe did know what he was doing but he was working much more intuitive than you and I ever will. All the chords he uses do related to the original tune except he did free up places the make substitutions that work. Remember the old saying......if it sounds good, play it. Sometimes more theory is really just less and forgetting letting the human ear experience.

Joe took liberties with time and bars and worked it like a solo cocktail pianist will dress a tune to expand it. Think here the great Art Tatum. and you will see probably where Joe was taking his thoughts. There are many already done transcriptions of this tune. Get one and print is out. Then print out the tune as in standard fake book form. Tune on the recording and follow along and make sure you get a tempo and follow bars. After doing this over and over you will find the liberties he took. He normally used standard chord subs. In Joe's mind it is Major Chords, Minor chords and dominate chords. That is it he simplified it to the max. IF you can understand what I just said then you can do this however if you don't know chord substitution theory and need addition tutoring.

Thanks for this.
I hadn't come across this Youtube channel.
The website is very good too!

[lawson-stone]

Thanks guys! This will keep me busy for a while ? do you recommend any other books that tackle substitution and reharmonisation ? Preferably by era or style of music.

I could be totally wrong here, but from your questions it sounds like you are very new to jazz harmony and performance (again if I'm wrong I'm sorry and do not want to offend). If you can't already get a feel for what Joe is doing with this tune, it is likely that (a) you don't know the tune itself very well and haven't played around with it much and (b) you don't know much about reharmonizing and embellishing tunes.

If those are true, then this is really not the tune to be studying. Joe's playing is very dense, very intuitive, and his technique is stratospheric. Maybe find a more straightforward tune with a standard AABA structure, like "Misty" or the like, and find some players who you can track about half the time and the other half of the time you can't understand.

Like I said, I really do not mean to talk down to you, I just remember trying to transcribe Joe's performance of "All the Things You Are" and I crashed and burned after about 5 measures. I went back to things that were less ornate and found a level at which I could actually do the work and at the same time be challenged.

If not applicable just forget I said all that.

[Mick-7]

Thanks guys! This will keep me busy for a while ? do you recommend any other books that tackle substitution and reharmonisation ? Preferably by era or style of music.

Yes, there are few books on his approach to solo guitar/chord melody, for example: Joe Pass Virtuoso Standards Songbook Collection, Joe Pass Chord Solos, and Joe Pass Solo Jazz Guitar Book/Online Audio.

Here's a list of his instruction books: Joe Pass Guitar Instruction Books - Amazon.com

this is really not the tune to be studying. Joe's playing is very dense, very intuitive, and his technique is stratospheric. Maybe find a more straightforward tune with a standard AABA structure, like "Misty" or the like, and find some players who you can track about half the time and the other half of the time you can't understand.

Good point, Miss Jones is harmonically complex, Joe's instruction on reharmonization starts with blues progressions.

[Tal_175]

You can always post short sections of the transcription (2-4 bars) and ask members to explain the harmonic devices employed in that section. The analysis of the entire performance would be too much information at once. Working on integrating one device or chord-phrase idea at a time is the only feasible approach in my experience.

[starjasmine]

Hey Bert,
You might consider taking private lessons with someone who can not only show you how this works but explain why. It may be difficult to do this on your own by asking questions on an internet forum.
$0.02,
SJ

[BartLutsch]

I could be totally wrong here, but from your questions it sounds like you are very new to jazz harmony and performance (again if I'm wrong I'm sorry and do not want to offend). If you can't already get a feel for what Joe is doing with this tune, it is likely that (a) you don't know the tune itself very well and haven't played around with it much and (b) you don't know much about reharmonizing and embellishing tunes.

If those are true, then this is really not the tune to be studying. Joe's playing is very dense, very intuitive, and his technique is stratospheric. Maybe find a more straightforward tune with a standard AABA structure, like "Misty" or the like, and find some players who you can track about half the time and the other half of the time you can't understand.

Like I said, I really do not mean to talk down to you, I just remember trying to transcribe Joe's performance of "All the Things You Are" and I crashed and burned after about 5 measures. I went back to things that were less ornate and found a level at which I could actually do the work and at the same time be challenged.

If not applicable just forget I said all that.

Thanks for your message! What you say is absolutely true. The problem is that I find every level of jazz overwhelming. I also like Jimmy Raney a lot, but I get lost after two bars. The only songs I understand are more in the genre of gypsy jazz. They tend to stick to the original chord changes more and don’t reharmonize and substitute that much.

Can you recommend some players that are more accessible?

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for your message! What you say is absolutely true. The problem is that I find every level of jazz overwhelming. I also like Jimmy Raney a lot, but I get lost after two bars. The only songs I understand are more in the genre of gypsy jazz. They tend to stick to the original chord changes more and don’t reharmonize and substitute that much.

Can you recommend some players that are more accessible?

Grant Green

[BartLutsch]

Hey Bert,
You might consider taking private lessons with someone who can not only show you how this works but explain why. It may be difficult to do this on your own by asking questions on an internet forum.
$0.02,
SJ

Hey Jasmine

Good point, but the problem is that I live in Belgium and it seems to be very difficult to find someone who can. I have a guitar teacher but he concentrates on gypsy jazz more and the time during lessons always seems to short to really dive into theory.

I’ve been to a couple of music schools but the level of theory always stays very basic there. It’s diatonic chords and then perhaps some modes.

I would like a more practical approach that takes a song or rendition as an example and analyses what’s happening theoretically. Perhaps even starting in the very early days and building it up to more modern jazz.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

[BartLutsch]

Grant Green

I’m going to check his music out a bit more. Thanks!


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

[RyanM]

I’d recommend you learn the actual song:

[pamosmusic]

I’m going to check his music out a bit more. Thanks!


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

Green St, The Matador, and The Complete Quartets with Sonny Clarke are good ones to start with.

And like the above post said — it’s hard to analyze a solo on a tune if you’re not comfortable with the tune. And Miss Jones is a tricky one at that.

[lawson-stone]

Thanks for your message! What you say is absolutely true. The problem is that I find every level of jazz overwhelming. I also like Jimmy Raney a lot, but I get lost after two bars. The only songs I understand are more in the genre of gypsy jazz. They tend to stick to the original chord changes more and don’t reharmonize and substitute that much.

Can you recommend some players that are more accessible?

I'm hesitant to give advice because at best I'm a "middling" player, but since you asked, I'll suggest a few things that I hope many would agree with.

First, I'd focus on 2 song types: Blues and "I've Got Rhythm" changes. The latter features the classic 32 bar AABA song form and between the two of them really cover a lot of ground. If you DON'T know how to handle these, you're dead in the water.

Second, a lot can be said for working historically. That is, go back to Charlie Christian and study his treatment of Blues and Rhythm. His lines and phrasing are still alive in the playing of folks today. Nobody ever regretted spending decent time studying Charlie Christian's playing.

Then maybe look at the Swing era in general. The music sounds a little corny to our ears, but early Ellington and Count Basie laid the foundation for so much in jazz. Get the feel of it, and maybe even steal some lines and licks from the horn players. Again, I'd focus on Blues patterns and 32 bar AABA tunes.

At some point we all have a date coming with Charlie Parker, but the 1950's - 1960's provide a feast of great players like Barney Kessel, Wes Montgomery, Herb Ellis, Tal Farlow, just to name a few. Copying stuff from them, getting their "moves" into your head and playing will do a lot for you.

You should also really seek out a teacher or a good study book. There are a lot of resources out there for jazz players learning harmony and a ton of books teaching jazz vocabulary and melodic development.

But to boil it down, when I was at your stage, I wish I'd focused hard on Blues and Charlie Christian. Nobody ever regretted woodshedding those.

[pamosmusic]

I'm hesitant to give advice because at best I'm a "middling" player, but since you asked, I'll suggest a few things that I hope many would agree with.

First, I'd focus on 2 song types: Blues and "I've Got Rhythm" changes. The latter features the classic 32 bar AABA song form and between the two of them really cover a lot of ground. If you DON'T know how to handle these, you're dead in the water.

Second, a lot can be said for working historically. That is, go back to Charlie Christian and study his treatment of Blues and Rhythm. His lines and phrasing are still alive in the playing of folks today. Nobody ever regretted spending decent time studying Charlie Christian's playing.

Then maybe look at the Swing era in general. The music sounds a little corny to our ears, but early Ellington and Count Basie laid the foundation for so much in jazz. Get the feel of it, and maybe even steal some lines and licks from the horn players. Again, I'd focus on Blues patterns and 32 bar AABA tunes.

At some point we all have a date coming with Charlie Parker, but the 1950's - 1960's provide a feast of great players like Barney Kessel, Wes Montgomery, Herb Ellis, Tal Farlow, just to name a few. Copying stuff from them, getting their "moves" into your head and playing will do a lot for you.

You should also really seek out a teacher or a good study book. There are a lot of resources out there for jazz players learning harmony and a ton of books teaching jazz vocabulary and melodic development.

But to boil it down, when I was at your stage, I wish I'd focused hard on Blues and Charlie Christian. Nobody ever regretted woodshedding those.

Blues in particular. Blues can really give you a foot in the door on how those chord substitutions work.

And I'm a big shill for Grant Green, but also Charlie Christian. Yep yep.

[pamosmusic]

I’ve been to a couple of music schools but the level of theory always stays very basic there. It’s diatonic chords and then perhaps some modes.

I would like a more practical approach that takes a song or rendition as an example and analyses what’s happening theoretically. Perhaps even starting in the very early days and building it up to more modern jazz.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

That diatonic chord knowledge is foundational for quite a big chunk of what you're looking at in that Joe Pass transcription.

So when you look at that transcription of Miss Jones, could you ask a specific question about an early measure so that folks have a sense of where you are and what kind of stuff you're trying to get together?

[Stringswinger]

In addition to Grant Green, Herb Ellis should be at the top on any newbie list for jazz guitar. Herb was a close friend of Joe Pass. The albums they did together are sublime.

[Jimmy blue note]

Hi BartLutsch and welcome. It's a fascinating journey and it is so exciting to be learning about the music with such an open perspective.
You'll learn a lot of what you need by immersing yourself in listening to the music of the guitar throughout the history of the instrument. The more you have the sounds in your memory, the more naturally you'll learn and most importantly, the more your own questions will inform work with any teacher or peer.
I've always liked Jimmy Rainey. I think his lines are elegant, lyrical, natural and well thought out. This also makes it easier for me to see how a well informed player organizes a solo.
This is Jimmy playing and soloing over a good piece to know, There Will Never Be Another You.
Listen a few times. See how the solo he creates works with the original tune.

Another very satisfying player who has laid the groundwork for so many players is Jim Hall. Listen to Angel Eyes and see how he takes his time, not to dazzle the listener but to create a journey the listener can be dazzled to be a part of

And if you want to treat your ears, listen to Lester Young. He's a sax player, but he was also the cornerstone for the sound of Charlie Christian who became the father of modern jazz guitar.

and if you can't hear how that translates as a guitar solo:

Now what these all have in common is the same sense of how to use melody with harmony and how to create something in real time with the excitement of composing in the moment.
When you learn jazz, it's really important that your ear is informed by people playing; people's performances. Because learning jazz is about decisions, and choices of what can be done, how it can be done and when to do it. If you have the music in you, that's the greatest resource needed to get it out of you.
Listen.
Love the music.
Desire to create.
Learn.
Practice.
Love the joy of the experience.

[starjasmine]

I’ve been to a couple of music schools but the level of theory always stays very basic there. It’s diatonic chords and then perhaps some modes.

Understood... and sorry for mistyping your name in my previous post!

Do you understand the following concepts?
pivot-chord modulation
secondary dominants

I'd call these the bridge between diatonic harmony and chromatic harmony... they're crucial to understanding how jazz harmony works IMO.

PS: I found this online - he doesn't talk about these concepts and I didn't ask about them in relation to this video, just wanted to get an idea of your understanding of harmony. I have not spent the time to go through the whole video, but maybe the section on harmonic analysis would be helpful to you - let us know!

[BartLutsch]

Green St, The Matador, and The Complete Quartets with Sonny Clarke are good ones to start with.

And like the above post said — it’s hard to analyze a solo on a tune if you’re not comfortable with the tune. And Miss Jones is a tricky one at that.

Thanks! I've been listening to the early Grant Green stuff and it is amazing. I tried finding the chords to some tunes by ear but it was harder than I first assumed. I'm definitely going to put some more work into that. Once I'm familiar with song and it's structure I'm going to take a closer look at what he plays in his solo.

[BartLutsch]

Understood... and sorry for mistyping your name in my previous post!

Do you understand the following concepts?
pivot-chord modulation
secondary dominants

I'd call these the bridge between diatonic harmony and chromatic harmony... they're crucial to understanding how jazz harmony works IMO.

PS: I found this online - he doesn't talk about these concepts and I didn't ask about them in relation to this video, just wanted to get an idea of your understanding of harmony. I have not spent the time to go through the whole video, but maybe the section on harmonic analysis would be helpful to you - let us know!

No worries for mistyping my name

I know what these concepts are and I can recognize them sometimes in songs. I really don't know how to include them in my own playing though. That's another problem: I never seem to be able to play a song. I learn something by heart and forget it again after a couple of weeks. That's why I want to learn to improvise and play solo guitar. I think it must be so liberating to play the chords to a standard and just improvise over them freely like Joe Pass does.

I tried to analyze the first page of Have you met Miss Jones. What would you add of change? I'll upload it below.

Thanks for the help everyone! This is really helpful.

[BartLutsch]

Here’s my try to analyse the first page of Miss Jones. What would you change or add?

have you met miss jones annotations.pdf


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

[BartLutsch]

Hi BartLutsch and welcome. It's a fascinating journey and it is so exciting to be learning about the music with such an open perspective.
You'll learn a lot of what you need by immersing yourself in listening to the music of the guitar throughout the history of the instrument. The more you have the sounds in your memory, the more naturally you'll learn and most importantly, the more your own questions will inform work with any teacher or peer.
I've always liked Jimmy Rainey. I think his lines are elegant, lyrical, natural and well thought out. This also makes it easier for me to see how a well informed player organizes a solo.
This is Jimmy playing and soloing over a good piece to know, There Will Never Be Another You.
Listen a few times. See how the solo he creates works with the original tune.

Another very satisfying player who has laid the groundwork for so many players is Jim Hall. Listen to Angel Eyes and see how he takes his time, not to dazzle the listener but to create a journey the listener can be dazzled to be a part of

And if you want to treat your ears, listen to Lester Young. He's a sax player, but he was also the cornerstone for the sound of Charlie Christian who became the father of modern jazz guitar.

and if you can't hear how that translates as a guitar solo:

Now what these all have in common is the same sense of how to use melody with harmony and how to create something in real time with the excitement of composing in the moment.
When you learn jazz, it's really important that your ear is informed by people playing; people's performances. Because learning jazz is about decisions, and choices of what can be done, how it can be done and when to do it. If you have the music in you, that's the greatest resource needed to get it out of you.
Listen.
Love the music.
Desire to create.
Learn.
Practice.
Love the joy of the experience.

Thanks man! I enjoyed this I'm going to try to learn the chord changes of some standards by heart and try to compose my own little embellishments to it. Just try to add what I know. I'm going to keep you guys posted