How to count in jazz

[Karel]

Hello fellow jazzcats

Lately ive been trying to make my playing more rhythmically interesting..

I saw this video yesterday where Hal Galper teaches someone to tap the 1st and 3rd beat of a 4/4 progression so he actually plays 16th notes in halftime instead of 8th notes in 4/4

I tried this approach and i played straighter and cleaner but i tought it was common in jazz to count the 2 and 4th beats? Im kind off confused by this and i was wondering if someone could clear this up for me?

Wich beats can/do you tap, count, and accent to sound jazzy?

Ive searched about this on the internet but didnt seem to find alot of good information about it..

I hope someone can tell me the diffrent ways to 'swing' in jazz and explain them a bit more to me so i can understand why its done

I apologize in advance if my english is bad!

[NSJ]

Seriously go out and buy his book "Forward Motion"--you can get it in PDF on his site--he explains it all in depth. It's one of the most essential books I own.

[Karel]

Seriously go out and buy his book "Forward Motion"--you can get it in PDF on his site--he explains it all in depth. It's one of the most essential books I own.

Thanks for the tip, it looks like a really good book.
But the thing is im just a poor student and at the moment im just looking for a basic overview on how to count and swing.
Ill probably buy it later cause it looks like a really intresting book but now im saving up for a new guitar and the book looks a bit to complicated for me for where i am at right now...

Thanks anyway, ill keep the book in mind for later!

[Kman]

I'm always feeling 1 & 3 more than 2 & 4. Even when I'm just listening to jazz I feel 1 & 3 predominantly, but playing fast it's definately more even like Halper is saying. It's a good question.

[Karel]

I'm always feeling 1 & 3 more than 2 & 4. Even when I'm just listening to jazz I feel 1 & 3 predominantly, but playing fast it's definately more even like Halper is saying. It's a good question.

Yea me to, and i play more even too in halftime, but in recordings i often hear they accent the 2 and 4. Hope someone can give a good answer to my question

[JonnyPac]

I totally dig that Hal Galper lesson. All of his master classes are amazing. I feel different sets depending on the moment and content I am playing. Changing your internal feel can shape your solos and comping tremendously. Feel anything and everything. It is not "rock" or "white" to feel 1 and 3. You can feel those, 2 and 4; 1 2 3 4, or and and and and. Polyrhythmic sets are nice too. Dotted quarters played as running 8ths is the most common bop feel; not 2 and 4!! Sit around and scat to a metronome- that's the process. Variety is a huge part of jazz in general.

[pingu]

Saw a vid of Metheny practicing whith a 'nome on 2 & 4
I tried it and it works well .........
the idea is to make the 'nome swing
Emily Remler did this too

Like Jonny says try other things too but 2 & 4 is a good starting point
I think counting 1 & 3 makes you play too square for swing feel

[Reg]

The problem is you really need to be able to count on either 1 & 3 or 2 & 4, different tunes have different feels, grooves. But many players use just one and once you get use to either pulse, it usually isn't a problem either way. The majority of the time I think of 1 & 3, and feel.

[drobniuch]

Rock Funk 1,2,3,4
Latin, Bossa 1, 3
Swing 2, 4

[drobniuch]

btw the student on that video is not listening he must learn to listen to his teacher

[mr. beaumont]

The problem is you really need to be able to count on either 1 & 3 or 2 & 4, different tunes have different feels, grooves. But many players use just one and once you get use to either pulse, it usually isn't a problem either way. The majority of the time I think of 1 & 3, and feel.

This, really.

You can quantify swing, but unless you immerse yourself in jazz to the point of where you feel it always, where it's natural, it's not gonna come out in your playing.

All comes back to the sing it/play it exercise.

Everybody spends time practicing with a metronome, but the truth is, by the time you're on the bandstand, if you're spending too much time counting you're dead.

[NSJ]

Galper is concerned with the often over looked issue of how musical phrases actually exist in the real world. In the intro, he noted research on Bach music, and found that, consistent with the principles of tension and release, "everything surges forward to a principal accent".

He analyzes the fundamental contradiction of "one" as, in one hand, the first beat of the bar, and also, as the strongest beat of the bar, the point of resolution, which he notes to mean that "something has ended". Thus, "one is the beat that melodic ideas are played toward and at which they end". (p.17).

In exposing his ideas of hearing music in a linear fashion, he states that while a listener may tune into a Bach fugue by selecting a particular line, while "others recede into the background". (p.28). He then differentiates between (1) rhythmically active vs. rhythmically inactive melodic lines (e.g., whole half, sometimes 1/4 notes on the beat vs. quarter, 8th, 16th notes, triplets OFF THE BEAT) ideas; and (2) melodically active vs. melodically inactive ideas (chord tones vs. non-chord tones/extensions/subs/superimposed triads).

He then paraphrases Joe Oliver, who taught Armstrong: first you have to improvise inactive chord tone melodies as a way to establish, for your ear, a foundation to improvise more active melodic ideas ("embellishments"), via the mechanism of guide tone lines (p.33).

Then, he brings up critical concepts of starting out phrases on "tension beats",with the line moving towards the "target notes" on the "release beats". The target notes are chord tones, the inner guide tone lines (1,3,5, and 7) and the "release beats" are one and three.

There is so much profundity in this one Galper quote: "All problems with playing are hearing problems". When having trouble playing any melodic line, always play the last note, the Target Note(s, first, this gives the ear a place to hear towards". (p. 39).

Everyone wants to create a great solo. But where to start? Galper unequivocally states, "your goal, at the early stage of your development, is to create song like, chord-tone melodies and learn how to embellish them". (p.40).


And that's just chapter 1 of "Forward Motion".

Chapter 2 is huge--dealing with "Rhythmic Forward Motion". What is a strong line? "A line that spells out the chord changes so you can hear the harmony of the line without a chord being played behind it". (p.47). How do melodic lines spell out chord changes? "By synchronizing the strong beats of the bar with the strong tones tones of the chord and and the weak beats with the weak tones". (Ibid.). The release beats, the 1 and 3, are the strong beats of a bar. The tension beats, the 2 and 4, are the weak beats. The release tones are the R,3,5,7, while the tension tones are the non-chord tones..

Galpher then goes into the critical idea of playing in half time, directly quoting Diz: "The faster you play, the slower you count".

I could go ON and ON. There is just so much in this book! It is an absolute, fundamental requirement to have this in your library. Tell me you can't fork out 20 bucks for this? Seriously? Wow.

[JonnyPac]

Bert Ligon's Jazz Theory Resources starts with a great chapter on jazz rhythm too. Highly recommended.

[NSJ]

Bert Ligon's Jazz Theory Resources starts with a great chapter on jazz rhythm too. Highly recommended.

Yep. Got that one too. These two cats are the alpha and omega of jazz pedagogy, right now, IMHO.

[Karel]

Rock Funk 1,2,3,4
Latin, Bossa 1, 3
Swing 2, 4

Thanks man!
Im gonna use these counting methods to do some timinig exercises

[JonnyPac]

Yep. Got that one too. These two cats are the alpha and omega of jazz pedagogy, right now, IMHO.

For sure!

[Karel]

Galper is concerned with the often over looked issue of how musical phrases actually exist in the real world. In the intro, he noted research on Bach music, and found that, consistent with the principles of tension and release, "everything surges forward to a principal accent".

He analyzes the fundamental contradiction of "one" as, in one hand, the first beat of the bar, and also, as the strongest beat of the bar, the point of resolution, which he notes to mean that "something has ended". Thus, "one is the beat that melodic ideas are played toward and at which they end". (p.17).

In exposing his ideas of hearing music in a linear fashion, he states that while a listener may tune into a Bach fugue by selecting a particular line, while "others recede into the background". (p.28). He then differentiates between (1) rhythmically active vs. rhythmically inactive melodic lines (e.g., whole half, sometimes 1/4 notes on the beat vs. quarter, 8th, 16th notes, triplets OFF THE BEAT) ideas; and (2) melodically active vs. melodically inactive ideas (chord tones vs. non-chord tones/extensions/subs/superimposed triads).

He then paraphrases Joe Oliver, who taught Armstrong: first you have to improvise inactive chord tone melodies as a way to establish, for your ear, a foundation to improvise more active melodic ideas ("embellishments"), via the mechanism of guide tone lines (p.33).

Then, he brings up critical concepts of starting out phrases on "tension beats",with the line moving towards the "target notes" on the "release beats". The target notes are chord tones, the inner guide tone lines (1,3,5, and 7) and the "release beats" are one and three.

There is so much profundity in this one Galper quote: "All problems with playing are hearing problems". When having trouble playing any melodic line, always play the last note, the Target Note(s, first, this gives the ear a place to hear towards". (p. 39).

Everyone wants to create a great solo. But where to start? Galper unequivocally states, "your goal, at the early stage of your development, is to create song like, chord-tone melodies and learn how to embellish them". (p.40).


And that's just chapter 1 of "Forward Motion".

Chapter 2 is huge--dealing with "Rhythmic Forward Motion". What is a strong line? "A line that spells out the chord changes so you can hear the harmony of the line without a chord being played behind it". (p.47). How do melodic lines spell out chord changes? "By synchronizing the strong beats of the bar with the strong tones tones of the chord and and the weak beats with the weak tones". (Ibid.). The release beats, the 1 and 3, are the strong beats of a bar. The tension beats, the 2 and 4, are the weak beats. The release tones are the R,3,5,7, while the tension tones are the non-chord tones..

Galpher then goes into the critical idea of playing in half time, directly quoting Diz: "The faster you play, the slower you count".

I could go ON and ON. There is just so much in this book! It is an absolute, fundamental requirement to have this in your library. Tell me you can't fork out 20 bucks for this? Seriously? Wow.

Thanks for explaining the book man, it sounds like a really intresting book.

But it still looks too complex for me. Im still getting used to the basics of jazz. I just dont see the use in it of buying it when its just gonna be laying somewhere where i dont use it.. But i will certainly read it later! Like i said, it sounds really intresting, just to advanced for me at the moment.

Thanks anyway!

[Karel]

I totally dig that Hal Galper lesson. All of his master classes are amazing. I feel different sets depending on the moment and content I am playing. Changing your internal feel can shape your solos and comping tremendously. Feel anything and everything. It is not "rock" or "white" to feel 1 and 3. You can feel those, 2 and 4; 1 2 3 4, or and and and and. Polyrhythmic sets are nice too. Dotted quarters played as running 8ths is the most common bop feel; not 2 and 4!! Sit around and scat to a metronome- that's the process. Variety is a huge part of jazz in general.

I dont know what polyrythms are, could you give me an example?
Could you also give an example of a bar filled with dotted quarter notes?
Cause when u play in 4/4 and you dot your quarter notes, 4 dotted quarter notes dont fill one bar in 4/4 ? Im confused sorry..

[Vihar]

One-and-a-half, two-and-a-half.

[Karel]

Saw a vid of Metheny practicing whith a 'nome on 2 & 4
I tried it and it works well .........
the idea is to make the 'nome swing
Emily Remler did this too

Like Jonny says try other things too but 2 & 4 is a good starting point
I think counting 1 & 3 makes you play too square for swing feel

The problem is you really need to be able to count on either 1 & 3 or 2 & 4, different tunes have different feels, grooves. But many players use just one and once you get use to either pulse, it usually isn't a problem either way. The majority of the time I think of 1 & 3, and feel.

This, really.

You can quantify swing, but unless you immerse yourself in jazz to the point of where you feel it always, where it's natural, it's not gonna come out in your playing.

All comes back to the sing it/play it exercise.

Everybody spends time practicing with a metronome, but the truth is, by the time you're on the bandstand, if you're spending too much time counting you're dead.

Thanks for the tips guys! Ive noticed listening lots of jazz makes you play/feel in an other way and ill certainly keep doing that!

[JonnyPac]

I dont know what polyrythms are, could you give me an example?
Could you also give an example of a bar filled with dotted quarter notes?
Cause when u play in 4/4 and you dot your quarter notes, 4 dotted quarter notes dont fill one bar in 4/4 ? Im confused sorry..

Fill 2 bars with 8ths:

1+2+3+4+ | 1+2+3+4+ is an example. It feels like groups of three over the 4. You can start on another note besides 1.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Someone mentioned counting in funk.

Funk isn't "one two three four", it's "ONE two three four".

As Bootsy Collins would say: "It's all on the one!" Same with James Brown.

[JonnyPac]

Some say you should feel ONE in order to get off it ASAP. lol

[Karel]

Fill 2 bars with 8ths:

1+2+3+4+ | 1+2+3+4+ is an example. It feels like groups of three over the 4. You can start on another note besides 1.

I see.. Seems heavy but a lot of fun...

[Moonray]

To come back to the original question re.
counting 1 & 3 , or 2 & 4..........

My experience is that I have practiced [and listened]
with a 2 & 4 emphasis for over 10 years.....
Great for practice, yeah, but
I found that I could get a little shaky on the whereabouts of the almighty ONE.
After checking out Hal's 1 & 3 approach...I went through a period
of indecision ["count 1& 3, or 2 & 4?]
.... Not that I'm consciously counting after all these years playing....

But, like our original poster, I started to feel a little self-conscious
about the whole counting while playing issue, and it was interrupting
my musical flow.
I thought Damn!....I feel like a kid starting over....
Then, one day while warming up on some lines that I like to think I can burn on,
.. it struck me.....I can have BOTH....metronome on 2 & 4....[to give
the hi-hat groove thing ] BUT, ...I could FEEL the 1 & 3 thing.....

SO.....IMO there are two issues in flow here...the metronome [on 2 & 4] is
for the simulated swing ...While the "half time" [1 & 3] feel...is to settle
the time down [a bodily sensation for me] and give strong markers as
to where the line feels where it's is headed.

Try it, you're much less likely to lose "one" with some time in the shed doing this.
My time has certainly settled .

Hope this helps.