Em7b5 + Gdim7 = what?

[Ron Stern]

Another fine mess.
I was fooling around with Black Orpheus in C (i.e. A minor) There's
a part where there's a turnaround between two sections (right
before a 2 5 1 in C) that consists of Em7b5 and Gdim7. I was
looking for something to get through that smooth & slick so I put the
notes of both chords into a "pool" and then put them in ascending pitch order. Since each voicing has four notes it makes an eight note scale, or
something. That's the question, what is it? Not a scale because
it doesn't span an octave? Not whole tone scale, if I figure
correctly. If it's an arpeggio, an arpeggio of what? Is there a
name or raison d'etre for this?

Em7b5 = x7878x
Gdim7 = xx5656
Combo = E G A# C# D E G A#

Em7b5 arp = E G A# D E A#

. . . and is the closest thing I can think of. Diff between the
Combo and the Em7b5 arp is the addition of C#.

To my mind, C# sounds good over the Em7b5 and of course is a chord tone of Gdim7
so that's in the bag. So is that what this boils down to, C# over
Em7b5 ? C# is the 6 of E, right? . . . I'm lost. Why do I want
to know this? It's past my bedtime.

[Gitarguy]

Another fine mess. . . . I'm lost.

Yeah you are!

There are no sharp notes in either of those chords. Maybe it's time to circle back around and review chord spellings?

[JohnW400]

try A7b9/G instead of Gdim7

Next chord after your Gdim7 is what ? Dmi7 ? Always look to simplify things into I IV V or ii V I

[ronjazz]

Gdim7 is A7(b9) without the root. Bill Leavitt told me that most diminished chords are misnamed 7(b9) chords. Note that if you play the Em7(b5) and lower the D 1/2 step, you get what looks like Gdim, but just throw the open A under it. Also, chords function by what comes before and after.

[Ron Stern]

The lead sheet indeed says A7b9. I wrote my own and put down Gdim7 because that's what I play when comping, or some fraction thereof.
Always looking to strip things down to their essence, at first anyway.
The two additional notes of A7b9 are A and E. Actually Gdim7 already has an E so the only difference is A.

A as the root turns Gdim7 into A7b9 as you say. Why think of it as an A chord? Because then, Em to A7 is the ii and V of a 2-5-1 in D, as
you say. That's an easier way to remember the changes, it seems. There's a 2-5-1 in C, then a 2-5 in D, then another 2-5-1 in C.
If you think of the 2-5 in D, then Gdim7 is a sub for A. The closest sub is A7b9, but that's not the only one. The point is, I take it, you get to use
all the rules for substitutes for dominant chords.

So much for A7b9 or Gdim7. The original question was about C#, a non-chord-tone of Em7b5, nevertheless being played over that chord.

[Ron Stern]

Yeah you are!

There are no sharp notes in either of those chords. Maybe it's time to circle back around and review chord spellings?

Is it OK if I say Bb and Db instead of A# and C#?

[JonR]

Is it OK if I say Bb and Db instead of A# and C#?

Bb both times, yes.
Db (technically) if it's Gdim7, but as that's standing for A7b9, then C# is correct.
That's because, strictly speaking, the dim7 sub is C#dim7: C#-E-G-Bb, vii chord of D harmonic minor. Putting G in the bass is just inverting it.
(Gdim7 is vii chord of Ab harmonic minor: Gb-Bb-Db-Fb. The spelling makes no difference to the sound, of course, but helps understand the derivation.)

[ronjazz]

Playing the C# over the Em7(b5) is fine, since it is part of the D harm minor scale that fits over the progression. Keep in mind that a ii-V-I with a m7(b5) and a 7(b9) just about always leads to a Im. Short-handing Gdim in place of A7(b9) is problematic because it doesn't delineate the harmonic functions and proper bass motion. Gdim is not a sub of A7(b9), it's a piece of the chord, thus incomplete. Back in the day, and probably even now, songwriters looked at their hands when playing a chord, and a 7(b9) ofter looked like a diminished chord, thus all the misnamed dim chords we see in the old (and newer) fake books. This is true on piano as well as guitar.

[Ron Stern]

Short-handing Gdim in place of A7(b9) is problematic because it doesn't delineate the harmonic functions and proper bass motion. Gdim is not a sub of A7(b9), it's a piece of the chord, thus incomplete. Back in the day, and probably even now, songwriters looked at their hands when playing a chord, and a 7(b9) ofter looked like a diminished chord, thus all the misnamed dim chords we see in the old (and newer) fake books. This is true on piano as well as guitar.

Very interesting response, thanks.

To me it raises the question: what is the "correct" or "complete" chord? Isn't that a matter of context?

Is the idea that, when writing a lead sheet anyway, that every player is going to use, so that we're all playing from the same sheet music as it were, the best chord to write is the one that has the most information, from which the players can pick and choose?

I think the Gdim7 sounds much better as a comping chord. As you say, many dim chords are considered mis-named but that's what people play.

[JohnW400]

To me it raises the question: what is the "correct" or "complete" chord? Isn't that a matter of context?

Yes. What comes after the Gdim7? That will answer your question.

[brwnhornet59]

In the context that you wrote, I consider it an dom7b9.

You have E-7b5 A7b9. To me this is just another iib5 V7b9. Very common and one of the norms. When you consider that Bb is the b6 of D HM, (b9 of A7 b13), it is very easy to see the basic harmony. So as far as I am concerned you are using G-7 #11 as a sub against A7b9. Also very common to use the iv as a sub for the V.

[ronjazz]

When writing out the chart, it is important to state the correct chords, based on function. Under no circumstances is Gdim correct in this circumstance. The function is of a dominant 7th in a minor key. Thus, A7(b9) is the correct chord. Playing a part of it, (Gdim) is, of course, entirely acceptable, but even as you play it, you will actually be playing A7(b9). Gdim will not get you to the Dm chord.

[ArpeggioBlues]

DIMINISHED 7th chords --- The WILD CARD Chord --

Here's a little music theory (calculus.. system of pattern recognition; calculus is really all the short cuts in mathematics - here I am applying this to chord progressions)

the symbol '~' I use to mean 'equivalence'.. any note in a dominant chord that is altered gives color to the harmony and can be used as potential leading tones. Leading tones make your progression TRAVEL..

** know how to spell chords like you can spell a word.. this is really essential and just like memorizing times tables, it is worth the effort (try flash cards)

** know your enharmonic notes : C# is Db.. Ab is G#.. etc.

Let's first realize that Gdim7 = Bbdim7 = C#dim7 = Edim7 (spell them and see)
it's the same chord, just a different inversion..

Gdim7 and it's inversions spelled out :

C#dim7 = C# - E - G - Bb
Edim7 = E - G - Bb - C#
Gdim7 = G - Bb - C# - E
Bbdim7 = Bb - C# - G - E

*(remember your enharmonics)

(notice that if you take the root of each dim7 chord added up and put together IS a diminished chord : C# E G Bb is C#dim7 (pretty cool, huh?)

Patterns Patterns Patterns !!

* Notice all the note intervals in all dim7 chords are m3rds; a very distinct quality in chord progressions. Playing up or down a m3rd always sounds kinda cool and you see it in jazz all the time. (ie A7 - C7 - Eb7 - F#7) it works in both directions, skip between and you're playing in TRITONES .. (b5 substitutions) The most important interval in chord progressions

Chord Substitution Matrix with Diminished 7th chords and substituted Dominants

Gdim7 ~ Eb7(b9) ~ [b5 sub] A7(b9) ~ C#dim7
Bbdim7 ~ Gb7(b9) ~ [b5 sub] C7(b9) ~ Edim7
C#dim7 ~ A7(b9) ~ [b5 sub] Eb7(b9) ~ Gdim7
Edim7 ~ C7(b9) ~ [b5 sub] Gb7(b9) ~ Bbdim7

(There and back again)

see the [b5 sub chords] based on A C Eb Gb as another dim7 chord itself (Adim7) imagine basing the matrix on those notes. in this context they are the Altered tones.. color

This applies to all diminished 7th chords.. there are only 3 diminished 7th chords in the entire musical chord vocabulary. 3 different centers

Bbdim7 ; Cdim7 ; C#dim7 (all their inversions cover all 12 dim7 chords)

(Gdim7 is in Bbdim7) ; (Ebdim7 is in Cdim7) ; (Edim7 is in C#dim7) ; (Fdim7 is in Ddim7) etc. (see the m3rds?)

So, say you have that Gdim7; look at it's substitutes, look where you can go with it.. just treat it like a borrowed V chord..

Do you see the patterns? repeated over and over.. you can interchange all those chords for each other, and it'll work..

The chords above in that matrix all have dominant qualities, and the dominant chord quality of any chord becomes your pivot chord to progress to other chords, and key centers. A dominant chord, easily slides down a half-step to resolve, and it will also slide nicely up a whole step to resolve; as well as a Perfect 4 away. (The circle of 5ths/4ths guides that). Try that in m3rds up or down..

* Remember any dim7 chord is really a "WILD CARD" chord, you can put it in between any two chords, and it will work.!! Really! try it.. pretty cool idea to know in chord comping, if in doubt what chord to use, just use any dim7 chord in your progression in between any two chords of your progression, and it will work. (like 3x3=9)

(You can also use a m7b5 chord substituting a dim7, it adds a little more colorful harmony, and can work the same way as well - alters the harmony, only a tad..it's harmonic color)

I know this has been an eyeful, but if you can see the patterns, it can free you from constantly trying to figure out what chords to play or where. If in doubt, substitute. Always look for the patterns in your playing; with guitar playing look at the neck like geometry, squares triangles, rhomboids, etc.. different perspective.

*Learn all 7th chords, (maj7, min7, m7b5 dim7 any alterations, on four consecutive strings, you'll be amazed that those alone give you lots of vocabulary to play over the bass player) when you do this.. ALSO think of the chord in terms of the Root, 3rd, 5th and 7th.. know which one is under your finger, this will help with chord tone improvising.

What you will start to discover, is that there are no scales or modes, there is only the Chromatic Scale.

*Did you know that every 13th chord with or without altered tones IS a mode?
*Learn to spell chords and make it like knowing what 12x12 is..

(Oh, btw, this is my first post in here, I would love questions, comments and responses, just be nice, I'm new to this forum)..

Happy Travels !

[wolflen]

DIMINISHED 7th chords --- The WILD CARD Chord --

Here's a little music theory (calculus.. system of pattern recognition; calculus is really all the short cuts in mathematics - here I am applying this to chord progressions)


What you will start to discover, is that there are no scales or modes, there is only the Chromatic Scale.

*Did you know that every 13th chord with or without altered tones IS a mode?
*Learn to spell chords and make it like knowing what 12x12 is..

(Oh, btw, this is my first post in here, I would love questions, comments and responses, just be nice, I'm new to this forum)..

Happy Travels !

very good post..

I use this type of thinking almost all the time now..for me its symmetric harmony..i convert all dim7 chords to 7b9 chords in my head..but then expand their abilities...ex: A7b9 = C7b9 = Eb7b9 = Gb7b9..note that even though they all use the same notes..there are tritones built in making for use of many harmonic tools to play with..the melodic minor being my fave..rather than using the easy to recognize diminished minor third interval scale..you now have many choices to play with..and you can backcycle to a ii7 or II7 before it to increase the harmonic motion..or backcycle further and create a turnaround if there is time/space..

i see all dom7 chords - altered or not - as a group of four chords ex: A7 C7 Eb7 Gb7 as one chord.. and use it to build solos from..of course keeping in mind the harmonic structure of the tune..but give me a four bar vamp of a dominate chord and i will build a solo that is melodic and using as many harmonic staples from chord to chord with out showing the pathway..

as the chords mentioned are a minor third apart..i can also use major third intervals (coltrane thinking) augmented scales runs etc..to off set or add too the minor third sequence of chords..

so giving an A7 chord..i can use A7 C7 C#7 Eb7 E7 Gb7 G7 Bb7 B7 Db7 D7 F7 ..as pointed out by our new poster arpeggioblues...using the chromatic scale..

play well

wolf

[ArpeggioBlues]

Thanks Wolf... Sometimes I think people get bogged down in all the modes/scales/chords etc. I did too for years.. but at some point, it just clicks.. I had a commercial music class, the instructor said, free yourself from modes, think chord tones, and find interesting ways to approach them..

Cheers, mate

A.B.

[brwnhornet59]

free yourself from modes, think chord tones, and find interesting ways to approach them..
A.B.

Agreed!

[JonR]

I had a commercial music class, the instructor said, free yourself from modes, think chord tones, and find interesting ways to approach them..

How ever did that guy make a living as a teacher??
If you just give your students The Big Secret in 10 seconds like that, you're going to miss out on all the extra cash you can make by baffling them with modes for months on end!

Like jazz teacher Hal Galper said (sardonically, ironically) "we're in business here". (He himself prefers the gnomic utterances of the old masters, such as "let the melody be your guide": there's years of study in that phrase; but not years of teaching. The student just has to (and easily can) get on with it themselves. No earnings for the teacher.)

You can't create a whole jazz improvisation course out of "think chord tones, and find interesting ways to approach them"! You need all that BS about chord-scale theory, modes, bebop scales, etc, etc. You need to invent systems and methods. (I mean beyond the basic theories of key and chords.)

Of course, I'm exaggerating. But really, jazz improvisation is not rocket science, at heart. The great improvisers (most of them) may have studied traditional harmony at college, but they didn't study improvisation - other than by copying more experienced musicians, picking up stuff by ear.

[brwnhornet59]

"let the melody be your guide":

The great improvisers (most of them) may have studied traditional harmony at college, but they didn't study improvisation - other than by copying more experienced musicians, picking up stuff by ear.

That is basically the preface of Forward Motion in a nutshell. The book has been an excellent read so far.

[Nuff Said]

"think chord tones, and find interesting ways to approach them"!

I'm in agreement, but you can also use the notes in the scales to find interesting ways to approach chord tones.


Nuff

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think chord tones ... for 13th chords!

[Nuff Said]

Thanks Wolf... Sometimes I think people get bogged down in all the modes/scales/chords etc. I did too for years.. but at some point, it just clicks.. I had a commercial music class, the instructor said, free yourself from modes, think chord tones, and find interesting ways to approach them..

Cheers, mate

A.B.

I can't find a better way to approach the minor chord tones than an Altered Scale:

Look at all the possible approaches for yourself:
A Alt = A A# C C# D# F G
Dmin = D F A C


Nuff

[JonR]

I can't find a better way to approach the minor chord tones than an Altered Scale:

Look at all the possible approaches for yourself:
A Alt = A A# C C# D# F G
Dmin = D F A C


Nuff

Exactly; but it's the chord tones and the approaches that matter. The idea of the "altered scale" is a coincidence really; thinking of it as a "scale" is a distraction.
It obviously derives from keeping the 1-3-7 of the V7 chord and altering everything else. But the purpose is the resolution options on to the next chord: maximizing the half-step moves.
The problem with the scale viewpoint ("altered scale on dom7 chord") is that it can stop at the notion of a cool sounding scale on the chord itself - in isolation from its function.

That tends to be the problem with chord-scale theory in general: it ignores chord function and context. (It doesn't necessarily exclude chord function, of course, not when taught properly. But it's easy to take the simple, superficial view - "this scale for this chord" - which actually ends up being more complicated when you start seeing every chord in isolation.)

[Nuff Said]

I agree, scales can be dangerous in the wrong hands, but I use the notes within a scale all the time, I love the Melodic Minor modes.

I spent many years using "Steve Neff 's" book for approach notes, I use them all the time.

Approach Note Velocity Major (PDF Book) | Neffmusic

http://www.neffmusic.com/jazz-books/...inor-pdf-book/

Nuff

[oldane]

Given the complexity of your question and some of the answers, I am not sure I understand fully what you are after, but anyway, I'll give it a try from a different perspective:

I'm of the old school and not much into playing scales up and down the chords but more into playing horizontally to make nice melody lines and good voice leading with chords.

Approached in the really old fashioned rhythm guitar way (three note chords), one can voice your two chord turnaround as follows:

Em7b5: Bb(flat 5) - G(minor3rd) - D(minor 7th) root omitted

Gdim7: Bb(minor 3rd) - G(root) - Db(flat 5)

(the notes are on strings 6, 4 and 3 in that order, but they could of course be moved to other string sets as well).

With these three note chords, some chord tones are omitted, but the general character is preserved and in this case the voice leading is as exellent as can be - only one changed note and only changed a half step. Simple and effective.

But maybe it wasn't what you meant?

[oldane]

That tends to be the problem with chord-scale theory in general: it ignores chord function and context. (It doesn't necessarily exclude chord function, of course, not when taught properly. But it's easy to take the simple, superficial view - "this scale for this chord" - which actually ends up being more complicated when you start seeing every chord in isolation.)

Very true. Those older tunes (Kern, Van Heussen etc.) are about the sophisticated but yet logical progression of harmonies and beautiful melody lines, not about viewing each chord isolated and just play scales over each of these isolated chords. One CAN of course treat say "All the Things You are" in a strict chord-scale "modal" way - and players do that. But to my ears it sounds like an academical and mechanical exercise. Yes, the played notes would fit the chords, but this kind of tune is all about a logical "horizontal" harmonic and melodic flow - and that point would be missed.

Some soloists even ignore underlying chords and their scales here and there if it helps creating a better melody line. Lester Young frequently did that. Miles Davis has told that he and Charlie Parker once discussed whether one could play a such and such note over a such and such chord. Bird said yes, Miles said no. Some days later they heard Lester do just that, and it sounded right, so Bird looked at Miles with an "I told you" expression.

Bert Ligons book "Connecting chords with linear harmony" is good for practicing non-modal ways of handling those older tunes (and at the same time reading is practiced too - no tab there).