Coltrane changes

[ASATcat]

What I want to do is have Coltrane changes fit and work in twisted ways over a static I7 chord or the I7 in a blues.

If the blues is in C7 the Coltrane move would be
C maj pent > Ab maj Pent > E maj pent.

Say you want to play a chord solo in the middle of Miles Runs The Voodoo Down
Say you want to use the C min pent.

-
-1-4-6-8-11-
-
-
-
-
Now voice these tones with the three pents using the"whatever is close" voicing technique.

Play all these chords over C7 or C7#9 as a static chord
Just make a vamp with one of those chords above then solo with the chords below

C....Ab...E....C....Ab.............C...Ab...E....C ....Ab
----------------------------------------------------
-1---4---6---8---11---------1---4---6---8---11
-0---3---4---7---10---------2---5---9---9---13
-0---3---4---7---10---------2---6---9--10---13
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

Ab...E....C....Ab...E..............Ab..E....C....A b....E
-----------------------------------------------------
-1---4---6---8--11----------1---4---6---8---11
-1---1---2---5---9----------3---4---7--10---11
-1---2---5---6---9----------3---4---7--10---11
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

.E....C....Ab...E...Ab.............E....C.....Ab.. .E....C
-----------------------------------------------------
-1---4---6---8--11----------1---4---6---8---11
-1---2---3---6---9----------4---5---8---11--12
------2---3---6--10----------4---5---8---11--12
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

[ASATcat]

I hear so much stuff in these chords

Here's one idea
C7#9
---------------------
-6---6---6---6---6
-5---6---7---8---9
-5---6---7---8---9
---------------------
---------------------

I dig this sort of thing, reminds me of Frisell, a lot of freedom when using all 12 tones.

[ASATcat]

Here's the same idea based on the C major pent

.C....Ab....E....C....Ab............C....Ab....E.. ..C....Ab
------------------------------------------------------
-1---3---5----8---10--------1---3----5---8---10
-0---1---4----7----8--------2---3----6---9----13
-0---1---4----7----8--------2---3----6--10---13
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------

.Ab....E....C....Ab...E...........Ab....E....C.... .Ab....E
------------------------------------------------------
-1----3---5---8---10-------1----3---5----8---10
-1----1---5---8----9-------3----4---5----8----11
-1----2---5---8----9-------3----4---5----8----11
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------

.E....C....Ab.....E.....C...........E......C....Ab ....E....C
-----------------------------------------------------
-1---3---5----8---10-------1----3----5---8---11
-1---2---3----6----7--------1----5---5---9---12
-----2---3----6----10-------2----5---6---9---12
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

[fep]

Sounds interesting. But I'm not going to muddle through all that tab, I think a lot of the others feel the same way. A few chords, fine I'll figure out the tab, but when it gets to be this much, it's too much.

FWIW, my vote is you start posting standard notation, it's much easier to read (and easier to write too). For jazz musicians, standard notation is really the way we communicate written music.

Or post recordings, now that would be much easier than you writing all that out and I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear you play. Recorded all that would probably just take you a minute or two.

Better yet, recordings and notation. (At this point maybe I'm asking for too much),

[ASATcat]

Sounds interesting. But I'm not going to muddle through all that tab, I think a lot of the others feel the same way. A few chords, fine I'll figure out the tab, but when it gets to be this much, it's too much.

FWIW, my vote is you start posting standard notation, it's much easier to read (and easier to write too). For jazz musicians, standard notation is really the way we communicate written music.

Or post recordings, now that would be much easier than you writing all that out and I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear you play. Recorded all that would probably just take you a minute or two.

Better yet, recordings and notation. (At this point maybe I'm asking for too much),

Well, it doesn't matter what you do or not do. Free choice.

As for tab, right now I don't even have a computer other than my smart phone.
Partly due to the fact I'm a poor working musician. Music is my day job.
All I can offer is tab, feel sorry or stick your nose in the air.data is data, and that is my post.
You want to get hung up on notation when I'm not talking rhythms is silly, we are on a computer, not looking at a real chart.. I would like for you to "chew" on my topic and see if that works.

The word muddle is kinda rough also. Hey, do me a huge favor and do the work that would make it "presentable".

Anyway, I get the concept. =/

[ASATcat]

Sounds interesting. But I'm not going to muddle through all that tab, I think a lot of the others feel the same way. A few chords, fine I'll figure out the tab, but when it gets to be this much, it's too much.

FWIW, my vote is you start posting standard notation, it's much easier to read (and easier to write too). For jazz musicians, standard notation is really the way we communicate written music.

Or post recordings, now that would be much easier than you writing all that out and I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear you play. Recorded all that would probably just take you a minute or two.

Better yet, recordings and notation. (At this point maybe I'm asking for too much),

Ok, spent a little time thinking what you said. You really do have a good point.
Tab is a problem for many strict readers.
Mick Goodrick just stacks letters as his "tab" ie;

C7
C --D---Eb---E---F----G
A --Bb--C----C---B---D
E --F----G---G#--F#--A

If this is more user friendly then I' happy to use it and I'll rewrite all that stuff
('cause I enjoy it)

[mr. beaumont]

For chords with fret #'s I like the horizontal representation: x57765 (D minor)

Vertical rows, be they numbers or letters, never seem to line up after a while and give me a headache...

Just another 1 person vote...

[ASATcat]

For chords with fret #'s I like the horizontal representation: x57765 (D minor)

Vertical rows, be they numbers or letters, never seem to line up after a while and give me a headache...

Just another 1 person vote...

Hi Jeff,

I've seen that way of tabbing, I don't see how it would work with a progression of chords??

I think Feps idea of video is a good way to go, I have a Zoom video with those great mics and youtube ready, that and the conventional tab I wrote seems fine. I mean my tab isn't sloppy. At least for my purposes here, it's readable (to me, one more single vote).

However folks I don't want a tab issue overshadowing what I find to be a fresh generater of blues harmony, defiinately jazz blues or even avant garde blues, outside blues,, call it what you want.

This is one way I could use the chord examples above in a blues;

A7
-------------------------------------------
-1----3----4----5----6----8----10---11
-2----3----5----5----4----6-----8---10
-2----3----5----6----4----6-----8---10
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------

That's my menu of chords I chose from the above grids.
Now I choose four chords to act as the I7 chord and then go to the IV chord

-A7----------------------D7
----------------------l------
-1----3----4---8----l----7
-2----3----5---6----l----9
-2----3----5---6----l---10
----------------------l------
----------------------l------

Any combo of chords from above will lead into the IV chord
The one possible problem might be chords that already are a D chord (IV), that can come up in these harmonies.

[JonR]

You can use code tags to display tab (or anything similar) in proportion.

Just go the Advanced reply window, hit the "#" button and copy in your tab (or whatever) between the tags. Here's how your A7-D7 line looks (edited to fit):

A7                   D7
-------------------|------
-1----3----4---8---|-7----
-2----3----5---6---|-9----
-2----3----5---6---|-10----
-------------------|-------
-------------------|------

You can also choose Courier font, but it won't show multiple spaces (as on the chord symbol line). Here's how the above example displays in Courier (without code tags):

A7 D7
-------------------|------
-1----3----4---8---|-7----
-2----3----5---6---|-9----
-2----3----5---6---|-10----
-------------------|-------
-------------------|------

[ASATcat]

As if one couldn't tell it was Cliff from the obsession (in a good way!) with Coltrane changes and the blues.

I want to discuss these ideas fresh. No flowery books, no cosmic connection and no name dropping except for authors.

Barry Greene in his Mel Bay book Advanced Improvisation gives a bit to playing Coltrane changes over the blues. He provided a few lines and it totally confirmed my "obcession" with Coltrane changes and the circle of 5ths/4ths in general.

The chords generated here on this thread are not very good chord choices for straight up blues but they do sound fine in a jazzier setting or playing a static chord thing like Mile Runs The Voodoo Down. That sort of jazz has been my obcession, that's the monkey that needs to be fed.
I enjoy changes and am in a looong study on Stella By Starlight as well as ATTYA and GS.
My son is all into changes right now so he's getting me interested in changes once again.
I mean I always liked them but I also enjoy static jams.

[pingu]

I'm not ready for Giant Steps yet .... I'm into baby steps

but its interesting that you can superimpose some really out shit
onto a modal background or say a simple blues vamp

whereas if a lot of changes are going past , simpler
melodic based stuff works better .... sometimes

innit ?

Whatevs

[Mike Floorstand]

Say you want to play a chord solo in the middle of Miles Runs The Voodoo Down
Say you want to use the C min pent.

-
-1-4-6-8-11-
-
Now voice these tones with the three pents using the"whatever is close" voicing technique.

Play all these chords over C7 or C7#9 as a static chord
Just make a vamp with one of those chords above then solo with the chords below

C....Ab...E....C....Ab.............C...Ab...E....C ....Ab
----------------------------------------------------
-1---4---6---8---11---------1---4---6---8---11
-0---3---4---7---10---------2---5---9---9---13
-0---3---4---7---10---------2---6---9--10---13
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

I don't fully understand how those chords are constructed, could explain a bit more for me pls?

I can see the melody is the C minor pentatonic.

For the first 5 chords this has been harmonised with some stacked fourths but I can't see how they relate to C, Ab or E chords...the next five chords the voice has been harmonised sometimes with fourths, sometimes with other intervals.

I can see that the harmony contains notes from C, Ab and E major scales but not sure how they are chosen?

What is the '"whatever is close" voicing technique' - close to what?

Thanks

[ASATcat]

I don't fully understand how those chords are constructed, could explain a bit more for me pls?

I can see the melody is the C minor pentatonic.

For the first 5 chords this has been harmonised with some stacked fourths but I can't see how they relate to C, Ab or E chords...the next five chords the voice has been harmonised sometimes with fourths, sometimes with other intervals.

I can see that the harmony contains notes from C, Ab and E major scales but not sure how they are chosen?

What is the '"whatever is close" voicing technique' - close to what?

Thanks

Good question, these chords reflect the major pents that generate them.

C D E G A
_
_1
_0
_0
_
_

Ab Bb C Eb F
-
-4
-3
-3
-
-

This is an interesting chord, it has the R, 5th and the 4th, a hybrid chord.
-
-6
-5
-5
-
-

C maj pent
-
-8
-7
-7
-
-

Ab maj pent
-
-11
-10
-10
-
-

The C, Ab and E major pents offers all 12 tones, that gives lots of permission.
Here's the same Cmin pent using sequencing throught the pents
C7, C7#9
--------------------------------------------------------------------6----4-----------------------8
----------------4-----------------6----4---------8----5---------------------6-----7----8----
-5----2-------------5------3---------------5---------------6-----------------------------
------------5---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mike Floorstand]

Good question, these chords reflect the major pents that generate them.

C D E G A
_
_1
_0
_0
_
_

Sorry am still not quite grasping the system used to generate chords from major pentatonic scale.

If CDEGA is your scale and you want to use a couple of notes from that scale to harmonise a C note in the melody, you could choose one of these 5:



In your examples you do use the first and fourth of these - is that just because you prefer the sound of those, or is there a system behind it?

Many thanks

[ASATcat]

Hey Mike, no sweat not totally getting it. I'm patient and am trying my best to be effective in communication by type. Not easy.

Let's forget the pents all together and talk about these chords buit by stacking 4ths.
In my experience this is an amazingly forgiving chord. The chord has an amazing stability and you can be totally chromatic and meke it work.
For example using the C min pent scale
C7 original pent example
-
-1--4--6--8--11
-0--3--5--7--11
-0--3--5--7--11
-
-

Same idea but filled with chromatics
C7
-
-1--4--3--2--1--6--5--4--6--8--9--10--11--13
-0--3--2--1--0--5--4--3--5--7--8---9---10--12
-0--3--2--1--0--5--4--3--5--7--8---9---10--12
-
-

[Nero]

I had the exact same daught whe I i first read the op. But i think i got it.

The voicing line of the chords outline the C minor pentatonic.

The bottom of the chord is drawn from the major pentatonic scales that reflect the coltrane changes. And these notes are whichever are closer and keep the shape of the chord.

Really clever concept

[ASATcat]

The chord is so stable that all you really have to do is get you timing right and melodies generated with the quartal chords is just about free to do almost any move.

So no heavy theory there, simple ear stuff.

I've found this chords can harmonize most scales effectively enough to solo with them.
C scale
------------------7--8--10--12
-5--6--8--10--7--8--10--12
-4--5--7---9---6--7---9--11
-4--5--7---9------------------
---------------------------------
---------------------------------

You can see when playing diatonically the #4 comes into play like on the 8 chord. This quartal thing gives us what's called the lydian sound. At least a little taste of it.

So how the chords are derived is secondary to how they get used without thinking in a solo. As Michael Bloomfield said "you love these blues, play 'em as you please. So true. Rip Mike.

Now with the flexability of this scale the origin is a huge gray area
And it's easy to explain it away with my little "coltrane" idea. That
Means to me that the Coltrane " idea would fit as a harmonic device if it pleases me. And it does.

I got to have a good sense of what I'm shooting for and just can't be oblivious to the connections to make it work, it's not that mindless.

This explanation steps away from the concepts presented in the op to discuss this amazinf chord, almost a magical chord that can have you playing hip modern lines and chords in no time. This isa subject unto

[Mike Floorstand]

The voicing line of the chords outline the C minor pentatonic.

The bottom of the chord is drawn from the major pentatonic scales that reflect the coltrane changes. And these notes are whichever are closer and keep the shape of the chord.

I was letting these concepts digest in my unconscious for a while to see if I might have an epiphany...I don't think anything has happened yet but I'll have another try anyway.


This is all the two-note harmonies I could find (reach) keeping the melody note as C.

The system to generate this palette of chords is that in each case the harmony notes must be drawn from one of the major pentatonic scales C, Ab E.

Am I getting closer? The OP system generated fewer chords with a C melody but I can't see what the additional rule(s) would be to get rid of some of mine.

Another thing I don't understand is that if this is meant to generate a palette of chords which could be used to construct a chord solo to play over a static C7 chord, then (a) it generates some very unobvious choices (like EBC which is an inversion of CM7) (b) it fails to generate an obvious choice like C7 itself.

Cheers

[ASATcat]

Onward sharing some Mark Levine book The Jazz Theory Book

p. 361 Coltrane changes Played On Standards -
Bridge of Night Has A Thousand Eyes, first four bars

l Cm7 l Fsus F7alt l Bb maj7 l

Coltrane replaced the original V - I (F7alt - Bbmaj7) with a false
cadence (F7alt - Dmaj7) and then resolved down a major 3rd
(F7 - Bbmaj7).

l Cm7 l Fsus F7alt l Dmaj7 F7 l Bbmaj7 l

p. 363 - the first four bars of the bridge of Body and Soul

l Dmaj7 Em7 l D/F# Gm7C7 l F#m7 B7 Em7 A7 l Dmaj7 l

Coltranes reharmination

l Dmaj7 Em7 l D/F# Gm7C7 l Dmaj7 F7 Bbmaj7 Db7 l Gbmaj7A7 Dmaj7

[ASATcat]

Here's an easier way to play with this stuff.
Play a bar of I7 solo followed by the IV7, In the 4th beat of the I7, make some chord using each of the three pents C Ab and E.

C7 chord lick using C major pent in the 4th beat
C7...........................*..........F7
-3-----5------6-------8----l--10
-5-----6------8------10---l--13
-----------------------------l-----
-5-----7------8------10---l--12
-----------------------------l-----
-----------------------------l-----

Ab pent in 4th beat...*(three notes of it that is)
-3-----5-----6-----8-----l--10
-5-----6-----8-----9-----l--13
---------------------------l----
-5-----7-----8----10----l--12
---------------------------l----
---------------------------l----

E pent in 4th beat
-3-----5-----6-----9----l--10
-5-----6-----8----12----l--13
---------------------------l----
-5-----7-----8----11----l--12
---------------------------l----
---------------------------l----

Three different sounds moving to the IV.

Mix all three pents in each voicing
-3-----5-----6-----8-----l----10
-5-----4-----6-----9-----l-----7
---------------------------l----
-4-----6-----5-----9-----l----10
---------------------------l----
---------------------------l----

Gotta go eat

I don't fully understand how those chords are constructed, could explain a bit more for me pls?

I can see the melody is the C minor pentatonic.

For the first 5 chords this has been harmonised with some stacked fourths but I can't see how they relate to C, Ab or E chords...the next five chords the voice has been harmonised sometimes with fourths, sometimes with other intervals.

I can see that the harmony contains notes from C, Ab and E major scales but not sure how they are chosen?

What is the '"whatever is close" voicing technique' - close to what?

Thanks

[ASATcat]

Getting to the good stuff,

p. 368 - "McCoy Tyners Locrian V chord -
Locrian as a V chord? Jazz musicians usually associate the Locrian mode with half diminished chords, but McCoy Tyner often plays a Locrian chord as a dominant 7th or V chord.
Of course, McCoy Tyner probably doesn't call it a "Locrian V chord". I'm using that name because the chord is built off of the Locrian mode, and functions as a V chord.
McCoy often plays the Locrian mode, as a substitute for the written V chord. The substitute chord is from the key a major 3rd below the original V chord. I don't know whether McCoy developed this idea while playing with Coltrane, but it fits in with Coltrane's "moving key centers by major 3rds idea. So it's a form of Coltranes reharmonization."

[ASATcat]

Rounding 3rd,

"Figure 15 - 31 shows a simple V - I (D7 G) in G major.
------l---
------l---
-5---l---4
-4---l---5
-5---l---5
------l---

McCoy often plays instead of D7, an Ab/D slash chord are all from the key of
Eb major. - a major 3rd down from G, the original key of the progression.
Because this chord from Eb major has D in the bass, it is a D Locrian chord -
D being the 7th, or Locrian note of the Eb major scale.

Ab/D .. G
-------l---
-1----l---
-1----l---4
-1----l---5
-5----l---5
-------l---

Over this left hand chord McCoy often improvises on scales and modes derived
from the key of Eb, such as the Eb pentatonic scale.
Ab/D................................................. .....................................G
------------3-------------------------------------------------------l---
-4------4------6---4------6---4-----------4---------------------l---
-----5------------------5-----------5---3------5---3--------5---l---3
-----------------------------------------------------------5-------l---
--------------------------------------------------------------------l---
--------------------------------------------------------------------l---

[ASATcat]

6 agree with the voice leading problem, I wrote without a guitar in hand and that was not so good of a choice. Using the A as you suggest would sound better. I really gave no thought to the last chord, it was the forth chord my mind was on. Oops.

Here's a few more that I played with my guitar.
A7 for a change
A7........................D7
-------------------l-----
-2---3---4---5---l---7
---------------4---l---5
-2---4---5--------l----
-0---2---3---4---l---5
--------------------l----

A7........................D7
-------------------l----
-2---3---4---5---l---7
-0---2---4---4---l---5
-0---1---2---4---l---7
-------------------l----
-------------------l----

A7........................D7
--------------------l----
-7---5---2--------l---
-6---6---4---2---l---5
-7---5---4---4---l---4
---------------4---l---5
--------------------l----

A7........................D7
-------------------l----
-2---3---4---7---l---5
-4---5---4---6---l---5
-4---5---2---6---l---4
-------------------l----
-------------------l----

[ASATcat]

This is an etude I wrote using straight 8ths, no rests, no phrasing other than the notes in the "triangle" idea.
12 bar blues in A7

A7............................................ D7
---------------------------------l-------------7--8--7----------l
------------------------------8--l--7--8--9------------10--7--l
----------------------8--9------l--------------------------------l
-----------------9---------------l-------------------------------l
--------7--10------------------l--------------------------------l
-8--9---------------------------l-------------------------------l

A7
--------------------------------l----------------------------------l
-8------7--8---------7--10---l--6-------9--5------8--4------l
-----9---------8--9------------l------8----------7----------6--l
--------------------------------l---------------------------------l
--------------------------------l---------------------------------l
--------------------------------l---------------------------------l

D7
---------------------------10-l--8-----12--10--------------------l
-----5--6--7--8--9--10-----l-----10----------13--10-----------l
-7-----------------------------l----------------------------10------l
-------------------------------l---------------------------------12--l
-------------------------------l--------------------------------------l
-------------------------------l--------------------------------------l

A7
-------------------------------------l-----------------------------------l
-----10-----------------------------l-------------------8------8--10--l
----------11--9--12--9--11-------l------8--9--11-----11----------l
-11----------------------------10--l--11------------------------------l
--------------------------------------l----------------------------------l
--------------------------------------l----------------------------------l

E7.........................................D7
------------------------------l-----------------------------------l
-9-----------------7--8--9--l--10--8--7----------------------l
------------7--9-------------l--------------9-------------------l
-----8--9--------------------l-----------------10--9--7-------l
------------------------------l-------------------------------8--l
------------------------------l-----------------------------------l

A7................................................ ...........(E7)
---------------------------------l-----------------------------l
---------------------------------l-----------------------------l
---------------------------------l-----------------------------l
-----7---------------------------l----------------------------l
-7-------9--7--10_10--9--7--l-----------------------------l
----------------------------------l----------------------------l

[marceff]

Hi you all,
I am trying to understand how Coltrane changes work. Reading in the web I understood it is all about M3rd cycle. When I look at examples I find hard to see M3rd relations:

| Dm7 Eb7 | AbM7 B7 | EM7 G7 | CM7 |


Dm7 Eb7= 2°minor

Eb7 | AbM7 = V

AbM7 B7 = 3°minor

B7 EM = V

EM7 G7 = 3°minor

G7 CM7 = V

Then two 3rd minor seem involved.
Thinking to modulations from a key to another (according to classical harmony theory), the
changes could be approached as follow:

I II-
V I III-
V I III-
V I
Eb is II- related to D- , but V related to AbM7... and so on.Do you think it'd work as well?Thanks for reply