Does anyone of you use the Coltrane Changes ?

[phdmerrill]

Giant steps in giant shoes:

Actually, many people have had a go at setting lyrics to Giant Steps.

Haha wow!

[jtizzle]

Hi all,

thanks for all your answers, I see it can be an effective tool to improvise if you can hear it. In a book from Corey Christiansen, it explains it can be used over major ii-V-I-I (each chord during one measure, two measures of I at the end) in this way :

| iim7 - bIII7 | bIV7M - VII7 | III7M - V7 | I |

so in C : | Dm7 - Eb7 | Ab7M - B7 | E7M - G7 | C7M |
instead of : | Dm7 | G7 | C7M | C7M |

Used like this, you resolve upon C on the very last measure, which gives a pretty hip sound according to Corey. The melodic examples he gives sounds nice but the rhythm section follow the modified chord changes, and the few examples I tried with a regular ii-V-I section didn't sound really good to my ears...

So I was wondering : do some of you use the "Coltrane change" described by Corey (for ex. on a gig where rhythm section keeps straight) ?

peace
Guelda

PS : By the way, the "Giant Steps" in-depth study by Joe Diorio is great, full of interesting ideas, what a musician !

I haven't gotten there yet (reharming the changes in a solo ) but Mark Levine, in his Jazz Theory book, explains how in George Coleman's solo on All Of You (on Miles Davis live at the village vanguard), he reharmonizes a vi-ii-V-I into Coltrane changes, and the band follows him without missing a beat. I think good musicians who are familiar with this will also follow you, so it's good to practice the lines you can figure out with the band reharmonizing with you, but also come up with lines that will only slightly outline the reharmonization so it sounds good to the ear, I guess? Although I think that the point of the Coltrane reharmonization is to sound outside, so at first it's possible that it will sound weird to you, but you gotta get it into your ear.

[oldane]

For all those years I erronously thought jazz was supposed to be fun. Now I better understand why somebody on this forum recently said that one could not have an informed opinion on jazz before one had studied Bill Evans a couple of hours every day for 10 years.

BTW, Bill Evans himself said it bugged him with all that academical studying of jazz as he didn't consider it an academic discipline, but rather a feeling.

[eddy b.]

I like to insert the trane ii-V changes in All the Things you Are on the bridge...I will be good at in about 100years but it is fun to try...

[Rich Cochrane]

For those who are following the Pat Martino thread I suspect his augmented-triad-based visualisation of the fingerboard would be useful in trying to "see" the changes in Giant Steps. I can't confirm because I still sound like the village idiot on this tune but I'm sure being able to "see" the chords in logical groups would help with using them improvisationally in other contexts.

[Billnc]

What are the best Coltrane changes for metal?

[Eric Rowland]

|| Eb / / / | A / / / | D / / / | Bb / / / ||

[henryrobinett]

I use Trane changes from time to time, subbing on ii-V-Is. I worked on it pretty hard a few years ago, so it's still a bit of mental gymnastics for me, but it sounds really cool when done right.

I don't believe the rhythm section has to follow you. Listen to some of these great tenor players who rip through cycles - Liebman, Brecker, Bergonzi, etc. They're just apply changes pon top of the existing ones. That tension is kind of what makes it cool.

Oh hey guys! First post.

[henryrobinett]

Yes, but it's not about finding existing songs with Coltrane changes. It's about applying Coltrane changes to existing songs, even standards, to spice them up in a modern jazz style.

[docbop]

A nice book on the topic is.....

Giant Steps - A Player's Guide to Coltrane's Harmony by Ramon Ricker

Goes over using Coltrane changes over standards with exercises and etudes to help work on developing lines. Not a guitar book its for any instrument.

[Mike A]

for those that do use it- are your lines quite arpeggio based or do you use altered sounds over the dom 7 chords?, what was coltranes approach?

[JakeAcci]

for those that do use it- are your lines quite arpeggio based or do you use altered sounds over the dom 7 chords?, what was coltranes approach?

Coltrane's approach to the dom7 chords was a little different depending on whether the chord was preceded by the ii or not.

This is a really neat transcription of Coltrane's solo: http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/tran...STEPSscore.pdf

Rather than reading sequentially, it is basically only 16 measures long, but the choruses are stacked vertically. So with a glance you can quickly see how he approached, say, bars 5-6 of the form for all 16 choruses.

[Steve Montgomery]

Here's my personal use and abuse of Giant Steps in my arrangement "Hark! the Giant Angel Steps!"

(That's strange; how did this get posted here? I was aiming at a different thread, or so I thought)

[Steve Montgomery]

He's my abuse of Giant Steps in my arrangement "Hark! the Giant Angel Steps!"

[guelda]

Hi Steve,

ahah very funny (and well played !) abuse of Giant Steps, nice work my friend ! More suited for Christmas than summer maybe...

[JonR]

I don't see why I should use Coltrane changes.
He never used any of mine...

[edh]

I don't see why I should use Coltrane changes.
He never used any of mine...

that's to much! made spill my coffee on the screen. :lol:

you're right!! he doesn't play mine, why should I play his. to funny!

[sunnysideup]

If Jazz is a 12 tone music with a shifting tonal centre, then JC's changes are the most well-known landmark on that route.

If Jazz is just blues then Robert Johnson is the pre-incarnate of John Coltrane.

If jazz is just swing then Louis Armstrong must have sold his soul to the devil.

JC's changes formalise the next step from bebop. There have been no further formalisations since these changes; they are part of the vocabulary of all serious modern players (I am not that serious, or competent ;-) )

Nearly half a century ago I was struggling with House of the Rising Sun on guitar, though I could whistle Coltrane changes (and Hendrix solos), now I just struggle!

[Vladan]

He's my abuse of Giant Steps in my arrangement "Hark! the Giant Angel Steps!"

Great!

[ASATcat]

I take it Coltrane changes is Giant Steps decending major 3rds.

For example, C maj pent > Ab maj pent > E maj pent,, this is the Coltrane changes stripped of the V chord.
What I do with the Coltrane "Giant Steps" or "Coltrane Matrix" idea is to play it over a static I7 chord, say C7.

Here's a line that is C maj pent for four notes then Ab, then E pents
, four notes each. It gives an idea how this concept flows through the decending major 3rds.
C7
--------8-10-11-8---------------------------------------8----
-8-10---------------9------12-9-----------------8-10-----11
-------------------------10---------9----------9---------------
----------------------------------------11-10------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[eddy b.]

ASAT my understanding of the "Coltrane Matrix" is that it is a series of ii-v's leading through new tonal centers. So a ii-v I in Gmajor would be Amin-D7 Gmaj. The Coltrane Matrix would be Amin C#min.F#7 Bma7 D7 Gma7. He used this reharmonization technique on a bunch of standard tunes on his album "Coltrane's Sound" This CD came out about 4 years after Giant Steps and is the culmination of his practicing and studying these changes. The CD features McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones and I believe Jimmy Garrison. It is the last CD with these changes that Coltrane made before he went to the Impulse label and began his more open free experimental music ie. A Love Supreme. Coltrane's Sound is worth checking out.

[ASATcat]

Hi Eddie, this is what I know about my post.

It all comes from the circle of 5ths/4ths

..........C
.............G
...............D
...............A
..............E

Rearrange those tones to make a C major pent CDEGA
Take that C maj pent and find the "reciprocal" or inverse of it.

Ab F Eb Bb C D E G A

So Ab Bb C Eb F is Ab major pent, down a major 3rd from C

..........Ab
............Eb
.............Bb
..............F
..............C

Find the reciprocals or inverse of Ab maj pent

Cb Db Fb Gb Ab Bb C Eb F
E F# G# B C#
A little enharmonic magic and you see we now made an E major pent.
These three pents C, Ab, and E major pentsu form a triangle within the circle
...........C
......f.........g
....bb.........d
...eb............a
.Ab................E

This major 3rd pattern of C Ab and E is at the heart of the Coltrane changes of decending maj3rds.
It's a different way of using the circle I know but it does conform to what Coltrane was doing. Later these ideas were codified by W. A. Mathieu in his book Harmonic Experience.
Mathieu worked with Coltrane in his "later" years. Not that he had any later year, poor guy =/.

Hope this makes some sense.
I may have made some mistakes as I'm writing all this on my phone and that is hard.

It's great to play over a static C7 or Ab7 or E7 aside from Giant Steps.

This idea is also touched on by Barry Green in his Mel Bay book : Jazz Guitar Improvisation"

[ASATcat]

The V7 Imaj7 is also found in the circle of 4ths/5ths
Backcycle all the way to the Em7 if you want, in GS that would be way too much info for the 1 second you're on any chord lol. But it's totally cool if you're playing over a static I7 chord.

..........Cmaj7
................G7
..................Dm7
..................Am7
.................Em7

Moves in diatonic 4ths

There are a lot of musical ideas that come out of the circle, it ain't just to name keys.

[eddy b.]

AsatCat thank you so much for your explanation. It is going to take me a bit to digest. And I will because this makes a lot of sense really really cool stuff thanks for sharing!!!!

[ASATcat]

Thanks,
You know the way this all fits together almost seems like nature or a natural occurance.
Ok, I'm going a little far out there, but the harmonic series is also like pure nature so,,,,,