Super Locrian (7th Mode Of Melodic Minor)

**Rotris** · 11-13-2014, 10:18 PM

I just don't get it. Every single possible I plug in to given formula for the the Super Locrian mode-- even if I transcribe it enharmonically.

I just want to know how the mode works in C Maj/Amin.

So, after I plug a relative major key into the 1-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7 (the formula most given in books), I should end up with the notes that I need of:

A-B-C-D-E-F#/Gb-G#/Ab

As I am only raising the 6th and 7th notes of A Natural Minor each a half step, I just don't see how this works as I have considered G, G#, and Ab and I still do not get the result when I sharp everything up and then flatten everything back down except for the one.

**Rotris** · 11-13-2014, 10:28 PM

Sorry, I should end up with:

G#/Ab-A-B-C-D-E-F#

**GuyBoden** · 11-14-2014, 08:12 AM

Start with a Major Scale: C D E F G A B

Flat the Third to get a Melodic Minor Scale

Melodic Minor: C D Eb F G A B

-------------------------------------------------

Start with a Locrian Scale: B C D E F G A

Flat the Fourth of the Locrian to get Super Locrian.

Super Locrian: B C D Eb F G A

**jasaco** · 11-14-2014, 11:19 AM

In my simple mind, this just means flat the 3rd of a major scale, keeping the 7th natural. Play from the 7th and you're done. But maybe I'm just failing to complicate this sufficiently... ?

**Rotris** · 11-14-2014, 10:31 PM

I'm confused by the above. Thanks though!

But, I believe I have it now. I need the notes to be G#-A-B-C-D-E-F# for the 7th Degree of the Melodic Minor 1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7.

I have to think of G# enharmonically as the major key of Ab for the 1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7 formula to work.

So, Ab Maj looks like:

Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G
1-2-3-4-5-6-7

Ab Super Locrian looks like:

G#/Ab-A-B-C-D-E-F#/Gb
1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7

EUREEKA!

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-14-2014, 11:48 PM

Okay, that's a formula, but I never think of it like that. I think of it as a set of notes to play over an altered chord.

Consider GAlt -- that's a G7 with b9/#9/b5/#5 (your pick).

Take:

1. Shell of a G7 chord (G-B-F)

2. plus altered notes:

b9 = Ab
#9 = Bb (with altered chords, go enharmonic!)
b5 = Db
#5 = Eb

3. Now if you feel like it, you can arrange it after the fact, into a scale:

G Ab Bb Cb(=Bnat) Db Eb F

Yes, by coincidence, that happens to be the 7th mode of Ab melodic minor.

**jasaco** · 11-14-2014, 11:55 PM

BDLH's is a good explanation of why this mode is cool over a dom7 chord. But, to me, it's too many steps to think about in the heat of the battle. If you want to just play that mode, the simplest thing in the world to just take a major scale and flat the 3rd. Then start playing from the (major) 7th tone and voila, you're done.

**JonR** · 11-15-2014, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Rotris

I'm confused by the above. Thanks though!

But, I believe I have it now. I need the notes to be G#-A-B-C-D-E-F# for the 7th Degree of the Melodic Minor 1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7.

I have to think of G# enharmonically as the major key of Ab for the 1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7 formula to work.

So, Ab Maj looks like:

Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G
1-2-3-4-5-6-7

Ab Super Locrian looks like:

G#/Ab-A-B-C-D-E-F#/Gb
1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7

EUREEKA!

You're making it way too complicated. Not your fault! You've fallen for some dumb orthodox jazz theory about modes....

BigDaddy's exactly right. The resemblance to a mode of melodic minor is pure coincidence.

The derivation of the altered scale (aka superlocrian) is from altering a dom7 chord, usually the V in a minor key, as he explains.

The point is to provide plenty of chromatic voice-leading options on to the next chord.
Eg, for G7 going to Cm (or Cmaj sometimes), the G altered scale gives you at least 5 half-step moves - either way - to chord tones or extension on the Cm or C chord. As follows:

G > G (shared tone)
Ab > G or A (6th of C or Cm)
Bb > A or B (maj7 of C or Cm)
B > C (duh!

)
Db > C or D (9th of C/Cm)
D#/Eb > D or E (or stays as 3rd of Cm)
F > E (3rd of C maj - no half-step option to Cm)

Yes, so it happens to match 7th mode of Ab melodic minor. So what? Does that help? Only if you know all your melodic minor scales better than you understand how chords and voice-leading work. Believe me, the latter is way more important (and easier in the end, IMO).
Don't practice your Ab melodic minor 7th mode. Practice your various shapes for G7alt chords (partial ones especially); look how they resolve to shapes for Cm6, Cmadd9, C69, etc.. Then you'll be in a much better position to actually use the material, instead of having to think about a scale and how to apply it.

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 11-15-2014, 09:03 AM

I' m enterely ok with that!
but,if you want a little Smell on Bill Evans in your playing,play in the same bar,before a Bmaj7 ,considered as a Tonic,G7 altered
/G7 alt Bmaj7/...
cheers
HB

**GuyBoden** · 11-15-2014, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by JonR

You're making it way too complicated. Not your fault! You've fallen for some dumb orthodox jazz theory about modes....

I agree, I think most players find that modes aren't very useful for playing Swing and older Jazz Standards.

**JonR** · 11-15-2014, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte

I' m enterely ok with that!
but,if you want a little Smell on Bill Evans in your playing,play in the same bar,before a Bmaj7 ,considered as a Tonic,G7 altered
/G7 alt Bmaj7/...
cheers
HB

Interesting... Can you give a link to an example?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-15-2014, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

BDLH's is a good explanation of why this mode is cool over a dom7 chord. But, to me, it's too many steps to think about in the heat of the battle. If you want to just play that mode, the simplest thing in the world to just take a major scale and flat the 3rd. Then start playing from the (major) 7th tone and voila, you're done.

In the heat of battle, I'm not thinking at all!

When I'm practicing, I'm working from arpeggios and patterns and trying to connect GAlt to CMaj or Cmin.

That may be just me, but I try not to think too much about scales, it screws me up.

**jtizzle** · 11-17-2014, 05:29 AM

Yeah, altered scales are weird in the way that the function doesn't correspond with the scale degree. Even though it's the 7th mode, it's a dominant sound and functions as a 5. The way the parent melodic minor scale relates to the key of the I in major or minor keys is by a b6/#5, or more simply, a half step up from the V (which is what you use it on). So if you're in C, and playing over a G7, you want to think of Ab Melodic Minor, which is a #5/b6 away from C, and a half step up from G.
I think that's what confused you, because you're trying to see how it relates to C, and tried turning C major into C melodic minor. What that gives you is an Ab altered scale.

**GuyBoden** · 11-17-2014, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by jtizzle

I think that's what confused you, because you're trying to see how it relates to C, and tried turning C major into C melodic minor. What that gives you is an Ab altered scale.

To the OP, get to know the characteristics of each note in a scale and how each note relates to the harmony. Playing a scale doesn't sound very good, but playing selected notes from a scale can sound superb.

**DMK** · 11-17-2014, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Rotris

I just don't get it. Every single possible I plug in to given formula for the the Super Locrian mode-- even if I transcribe it enharmonically.

I just want to know how the mode works in C Maj/Amin.

So, after I plug a relative major key into the 1-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7 (the formula most given in books), I should end up with the notes that I need of:

A-B-C-D-E-F#/Gb-G#/Ab

As I am only raising the 6th and 7th notes of A Natural Minor each a half step, I just don't see how this works as I have considered G, G#, and Ab and I still do not get the result when I sharp everything up and then flatten everything back down except for the one.

Don't think you should try to relate the 7th mode of melodic minor to major....best to think of superlocrian as lorciran with b4....
it's ALSO the same thing as the "altered" scale....which is kind of an artificial, but useful approach to dominant chords...
if you build a tertial chord on the 7the degre of melodic minor, you get a minor 7 b5 chord (known to some as half diminshed).
The b4 degree, though being the 4th note in the scale, is enharmonic to a a major third, hence making it fit with altered dominant chords.
The name altered scale DOES reference major scales.
It means: take a given MAJOR scale and lower every scale degree (except the first) a half step, and you have the altered scale:
D E F# G A B C# lower all a half step and you get:
D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb equals F# and you still can construct a chord with a major third and a b7. b5. And b9, #9 and b13.

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 11-17-2014, 12:12 PM

Interesting... Can you give a link to an example?

Hi JonR!I seached my notes about that.
It was a seminar given a few years ago by a Dutch jazz lecturer.
Naturally,I find full of notes,but not this particulary one !

the principle behind is quite simple:

Eb Lydian augmented in the 3th mode of Cmel min scale.
If you place in the same bar just before the VIIth degree,B7 alt, you'll give a " modal"perspective to your Imaj7#11#5 chord
cheers
HB

**Groyniad** · 11-17-2014, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte

Hi JonR!I seached my notes about that.
It was a seminar given a few years ago by a Dutch jazz lecturer.
Naturally,I find full of notes,but not this particulary one !

the principle behind is quite simple:

Eb Lydian augmented in the 3th mode of Cmel min scale.
If you place in the same bar just before the VIIth degree,B7 alt, you'll give a " modal"perspective to your Imaj7#11#5 chord
cheers
HB

hi HB
What do you have to do to sound (a little) like Bill Evans? Resolve to 1 (C) from an altered dom built on 7 (B)??
thanks for your time

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 11-17-2014, 02:32 PM

hi HB
What do you have to do to sound (a little) like Bill Evans? Resolve to 1 (C) from an altered dom built on 7 (B)??
thanks for your time

No,Groynyad,

you misunderstand me.

I don't try to resolve on C jazz min (Tonic of the C melodic minor scale) but on bIII, Eb Lydian augmented ,regarded as a first degree of a Eb major scale.
This" shadow V7" just before a Ebmajor is borrowed from the C real melodic minor scale
That's how our Dutch instructor explained a chord sequence in a Bill Evans Standard,that I does not anymore suceed to find in my notes (lost lesson :-( )
OK ?
cheers
H B

**Groyniad** · 11-17-2014, 06:22 PM

still don't understand what a 'shadow V7' is

give me a simple example please

- if 1 is C maj - what is the shadow V7?

thanks

**eh6794** · 11-17-2014, 11:08 PM

Id like to make a suggestion as someone who just got a decent handle on the MM scale:

1.learn the first degree inside an out. For me on the fretboard, it was easier to just flat the major scales third. 2. Then memorize the names of each mode and what that mode does ie Lydian Dom is the fourth degree of that scale I just learned.

Everything else will fall into place, like why the Ab MM works for a G7

That should only take three or four serious hours.