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Why do musical intervals have two names?
Minor 2nd/b2
major 2nd/2
minor 3rd/b3
major 3rd/3
perfect 4th/4
AUGMENTED 4th/DIMINISHED 5th/#4#5
and on
what is the argument for having multiple names? I can see for augmented but why not just call a minor 3rd a b3?
if you look at a list of intervals why have another name?
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01-01-2015 02:58 PM
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Some people call you Robert and other Bob all usually for simplicity, but all the same thing. Unlike enharmonics like G# and Ab those can have very different meaning and affect other things depending on context.
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Ever work with old arrangers' charts? Maj MAJ triangle M M7 ... lots of Roberts and Robs in this biz.
Originally Posted by docbop
David
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Oh yes, chord symbol could get crazy. I got into the habit of using the triangle and slashed 7's for Major 7 and that cause a stink with some. The one that throws me today is seeing 7/9 for a 9th chord or I think I've seen 7/6 for a 13th. I see a slash first thing that comes to mind is it's telling me what to put in the bass. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Yup lots of Roberts and I discover more than one DocBop. Which was a nickname a sax player back at Grove School of music hung on me back in the 70's.
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"Unlike enharmonics like G# and Ab those can have very different meaning and affect other things depending on context."
How so? in this Labeling context of intervals. the distance between two notes is always the same. from c to g is a 5 and g to c is a 4. always the same. so for all practical purposes it seems like we have two names for the same thing but no one knows why? in the context of labeling intervals. why not b3
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Say I call something a #5 instead of a b6 I'm implying there is no natural 5, where if I say b6 I know there is 5th. That effects chord voicings, the potential for a rub between the 5th and b6 that can add color to improv line. So it means more than distance between notes it implies function of the note. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
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Gotcha. But what about just in the context of labeling intervals? Let's say you had a big chart full of intervals. Examples.
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Think how it's being used and what is the most readable. I'm writing in my notebook I'm might use -5 or +9 in a chord symbol, but b5 or b9 in the written text. If writing something for others I have try to consider the background and decide if I can use shorthand or not. If writing it out makes it clearer for my target audience then I will write it out. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
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Those look like intervals vs scale degrees. 2 different things.... Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
R b3 5
That tells you something specific about the notes in relationship to the scale. Intervals, however, are simply in reference to the previous note.
For the same pitches you could say it's:
Minor 3rd, major third
Same thing written different ways because they reference different relationships. Intervals vs. Scale degrees...Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-02-2015 at 12:56 AM.
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show me where intervals have two names. haven't seen an example yet.
1. anyway, the answer is "notation". C to F# has the same sound as C to Gb, but they aren't written the same.
2. other notes (no pun intended):
"b3" is not a proper interval name. its either minor or major (or augmented or diminished)
"b5" is also not an interval name. its an indication of chord quality
"3rd" is short hand, non-specific, incomplete, and doesn't indicate whether its minor or major. not a proper interval name either.Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-02-2015 at 10:42 AM.
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yes we do know why. you just gave an example of an inverted interval. not the same. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
when you say "C to G", C is the implied bottom note. When you say "G to C", G is the implied bottom note. unless you specify "G down to C". interval names have an upward reference by default.Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-02-2015 at 10:48 AM.
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Yea... it's all about what the reference is. What is the interval your labeling is in relationship to.
There is some general BS... usually intervals are labeled from the bottom up, unless other wise indicated. Usually when leading downward from a note... the interval is described as lowered.
We're talking about music... interval implies the distance between two tones. The name of the interval indicates the number of tones of the diatonic scale it includes.
There are different types of tones...whole tones or simi-tones... according to the number of chromatic steps contained in the interval.
We can always alter the standard practice usage or terms to try and better explain what we're talking about, that's generally where the confusion begins... and the fun begins.
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"simi-tones"?
the only Simi tones that I know of are "fruit forward with a long finish, notes of raspberry, and hints of chocolate and coffee".
you are a Bay area guy after all.
http://www.simiwinery.com/2010-SIMI-...er&maxRows=12&Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-02-2015 at 11:34 AM.
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LOL... yea I am. Those are usually great gigs... I don't really drink, but my wife and kids do.
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Can I be an @#$%hole and mention that C##-Fbb is a fourth AND a simi-tone? Originally Posted by Reg
...just messing here
...just
...ok im out
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OHHHH man... thankfully I said some general BS and your example is just the reason why.
Whats worse sight reading.... C## to Ebb or B# to Cb... it really happens.
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It's a wonderful winery. Been there twice. The company is headed up (or was headed up) by a lovely lady. My wife and I sat with her and two others on the tour and made short work of a wonderful bottle of Cab Sauv. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
"simi-tones"?
the only Simi tones that I know of are "fruit forward with a long finish, notes of raspberry, and hints of chocolate and coffee".
you are a Bay area guy after all.
Simi Winery
Now . . . back to the topic!!
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Minor 3rd, has the name b3 too because b3 is is shorter and more practical in written form.
Correct or not, it has become common language.
When writing the intervals contained with in a scale f ex :
1 2 b3 5 b6 M7
One should really not overthink the terms themselves as much as what they describe, which is the most important part
A subtle but important difference of meanings is that :
THE minor 3rd is the note a minor third up from the root (1)
Where as ."a" minor 3rd is describing any two notes and the interval that seperates them (by a minor third)
OR when used in regards to notation, as someone hinted earlier, the number/name of a written interval is determined by the visual written distance.
And in this way an augmentet second looks like a second, but sounds like a b3.
In regards to enharmonic notes like f ex G#/Ab
There are fundamental reasons why other than classical violinists claim to subtle microtonal difference
It has to do with notation and keysLast edited by vhollund; 01-06-2015 at 01:15 PM.
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incorrect. when you write out a scale or chord you are NOT writing intervals, as such.
an interval is the distance between two tones. two. then one is tasked with describing the quality of the interval.
if you have a music theory textbook source that counters this, and one that is used at a number of the world's best music colleges, please provide a link.
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Nonsens
1 2 b3 5 b6 b7 are the intervallic values of the notes in a minor scale in relation to the rootLast edited by vhollund; 01-05-2015 at 09:11 AM.
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what they are - descriptions of scale degrees as being altered from the major scale tones one would otherwise expect (relative to the tonic, not root). there is nothing wrong with them, but they are referencing degrees in a scale, to communicate information about a scale.
whether you like it or not:
Interval quality has its own descriptive language. This language has been used for eons, and is still in use today - in 2015.
Now, once again class, how many tones are we dealing with when we describe intervals?
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Wow fumblefingers...Is this also how you approach performing jazz...
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this is about the OP. he is struggling with fundamentals. his question is about intervals - not scales, not chords. he is clearly confused by the very issue we are debating. so, are we trying to clarify it for him or have a one-off philosophy discussion?
he deserves the same conventional training that the rest of us had. there is plenty of time to confuse things, mash up things, create mental short-hand, get sloppy, etc.
mangling fundamentals is not a sign of creativity or sophistication, it's just being lazy. get creative with advanced concepts and ground breaking material, not base (and I mean base) fundamentals. try that with any other field and you know what the results will be.
what I have described is how it is taught to millions of musicians of all ages from amateur to pro. it's how it is taught at today - at Berklee and at Julliard. if it ain't broke don't fix it and Keep It Simple Stupid, etc.
but suit yourself.
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