What determines what Key a song is recorded in?

**bobsguitars09** · 11-30-2015, 07:27 PM

Were the old jazz standards recorded in different keys to accommodate the singers vocal style and range? And if not.. What determines what key it was recorded in?

and talking about a jazz tune with no vocals.. What is the difference between playing a song in the key of C as opposed to Db? And does each Major Key have ANY sound of its own? Does anyone say "that song has a key of Gb sound"?

**mr. beaumont** · 11-30-2015, 07:33 PM

Boy, cool topic.

Singers dictate key. That's a fact...but then there's tunes with no singer...

Some stay in original key...others establish themselves elsewhere (Autumn Leaves, anyone?)

Only constant is, a jazz player better be capable in ALL keys.

**MarkRhodes** · 11-30-2015, 07:33 PM

I was taught that horn players favored flat keys, and jazz was (to a large extent) horn music, so... I'm used to the flat keys now and tend to prefer them, though like many guitar players, I find G a convenient key.

Singers are a whole other deal...

**rictroll** · 12-01-2015, 12:20 AM

For fun...affective key characteristics

AFFECTIVE KEY CHARACTERISTICS

Reminds one of Nigel and D Minor....

**docbop** · 12-01-2015, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Singers are a whole other deal...

Here's one that's key doesn't matter to....

**Jonah** · 12-01-2015, 07:27 AM

I heard that Ella tried to cover a standard in the original key, considering it to be a kind of professional challenge.. but in general singers tend to change the key...

Hearing the key as any musical hearing is individual...

Key changes are possible because we use equale temeperament. That it intervals are change in order to make instrument in tune in any of the 12 keys.

I play baroque instruments with moveable frets and where music allows I like tuning frets to mean temperament... the istrument usually sounds much deeper and warmer in chords... but some notes will be out of tune certain harmonies.
So you cannot play music that involves modualtions in far keys within one piece.

there are intruments of free intonation (like violins, violkas ets, or trombone) where you can intonate howere you want... and instruments of realtively free intonation - like guitar, horns where you can adjust intonation just a bit..

The fact is that when violinists play in certain key they usually correct intonation unconciously to tune in the key better
Actually even pianists can do it indirectly - by the way they make attack and phrasing, accent resolutions and suspenses...

So the concept of equal temperemant to my mind reflect more the universal philosophy characteristic for high baroque period when it grew more and more into use... it's like a Universe with plenty of planets and complex systemt of mutual tensions...

(tha's why earlier modal music if we look from poit of view of 'equal temperament' may seem to be a set of occasional discoveries - which is not true of course if we look at it from inside)

I think it can be compeared to the discovery of perspective in rennaisance painitng- when suddenly all the space of the picture became subject to one logics, (actually the picture itslef became the representation of the space).

So this universal idea sooner or later must have brought up a cocept that 'it does not matter in which key you play'.

But there's cultural references still

- in classical music certain keys are connected with semantics and the key is obviously involved in context of the piece. the origins of these semantics are complex and often come from earlier medivael modes from genres, authoritive pieces of certain composers etc. (the most significant for example: c-minor (solemn tragic.. 19th century tragic symphonies), b-minor (mournful music, funeral music), D-major (especially joyful, originally associated with christmas), C-major (naturality, simplicity, transparency)
Besides, I (and some other people) have colours associated with keys for example... and very often I can identify key approximately by the colour I see... like deep dark green is E major, very dark blue d minor... b minor - red-brown
usually it works more complex as a mixture but I can see the dominant colour...

- connection with instrument and therefore special sound - like open string keys for guitar, like more dense and warm overtones in flat keys for piano (compare Eflat and E for example)

- absolute pitch and relation to the feel of 'pitch center' - meaning that certain pieces might be heard comfortably and balanced in certain keys but being transposed they do too low or too high or there's a gap between parts so they need to be re-arranged for the new key... I mean the pitch in relation to hearing (not to technical abilities of the instrument)
Especially it concerns songs with comping written out...

When I play guitar I feel that some phrases or melodical ideas fit better for certain keys - and not only because of tecnical (in)convinience..

So there are difinitely plenty of reasons to keep the key as well as to change it...

**MarkRhodes** · 12-01-2015, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by rictroll

For fun...affective key characteristics

AFFECTIVE KEY CHARACTERISTICS

Reminds one of Nigel and D Minor....

Fascinating. Thanks for that. Gives one something to think about...

**targuit** · 12-01-2015, 09:59 AM

For a singer like Sinatra or anyone for that matter, the key matters a lot. You like to stay with the tessitura vocally where you are not straining the limits of your vocal range. Because I like to sing the standards, I often turn to certain singers like Sinatra and Bennett or Johnny Mathis to help define the range within which I'm sure my best key for a particular song will lie. Some songs seem to just sound better in certain keys vocally in subtle ways that are hard to explain. They seem to have more "lift".

Since it is holiday times soon, take a song like The Christmas Song by Mel Torme. It just sounds different in terms of certain 'qualities' in the key of C than Nat King Cole's classic Db or in Eb. Maybe that is just subjective. I prefer the flat keys.

Beyond the issue of vocal range and tessitura, I find that the issue of playability is paramount, assuming for the moment we are talking about playing solo guitar. Some songs just lay better on the fret board in a certain key, often determined by the melody line or the way you can finger the turnarounds in a key like Bb. I just recently recorded in my living room...err, studio....a version of Body and Soul in the key of Db . But Sinatra recorded the tune in Bb, where the V7th alt chord in first position affords you a nice turnaround and phrase chord transitions as well, though the lowest melody note puts a bit of pressure vocally on my bass range. So it is a choice with a few parameters.

Obviously, if you are in a band situation with horns and other wind instruments, they would have a say about the key choice as well. You need to be able to transpose on the fly, but that is not really very difficult with experience.

**dingusmingus** · 12-01-2015, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I was taught that horn players favored flat keys, and jazz was (to a large extent) horn music, so... I'm used to the flat keys now and tend to prefer them, though like many guitar players, I find G a convenient key.

Like a lot of jazz guitar players, I came from a rock background and so was used to sharp keys. When I started jazz all the flats seemed strange.

After a few years, and after learning the instrument much better via a jazz context, I'm more comfortable with flats. I recently played a gig with rock players, and now all the sharps seemed weird. I guess it's time to start running tunes through every key, as I've been meaning to do for years now.

**docbop** · 12-01-2015, 02:13 PM

Being the original question was "What determines what Key a song is recorded in?", so recording is the key word the answer is whatever key the artist be it instrumentalist or singer performs the song in.

Singer all have there good range for their voice and know the keys that work best for them. Stevie Wonder's keys are typically high for others to use even though they try. Instruments and including specific instrument has keys they sound best in. You have an instrument that you love, but you know certain notes don't sing like the rest you've going to do what you can to avoid that register/area of the instrument.

Last some songs for instrumentalist are typically played in certain keys so in general they will stick to them. Some keys are said to just sound better or people respond to better. One I've heard discussed is Bb minor. A lot of people especially guitarist will play in Amin easy key all white keys, but it is said move up a half-step to Bb min and same song or jam has better sound. Of course that could be horn players talkin'. <grin>

The key for recording is going to be what's best for the performer, or the performance if a larger ensemble.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-01-2015, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by dingusmingus

I guess it's time to start running tunes through every key, as I've been meaning to do for years now.

I wonder if I'll ever do that. I run lots of things through all 12 keys but I've never bothered to play, say, "Satin Doll" or "There Will Never Be Another You" in all 12 keys. I know it is necessary to be able to play in all keys but I don't know how much advantage there is to playing every tune in all 12 keys. Blues, yes. Rhythm changes, yes. But "Yardbird Suite"? I think not.

**dingusmingus** · 12-01-2015, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I wonder if I'll ever do that. I run lots of things through all 12 keys but I've never bothered to play, say, "Satin Doll" or "There Will Never Be Another You" in all 12 keys. I know it is necessary to be able to play in all keys but I don't know how much advantage there is to playing every tune in all 12 keys. Blues, yes. Rhythm changes, yes. But "Yardbird Suite"? I think not.

Good point--I doubt I'd ever do every tune, or even most. But maybe with the blues or something you're really drilling hard.

You also get lots of more uncommon keys in bridges, anyway. Bert Ligon points out in the intro to "Comprehensive Technique" that you'd play every key if you just play these four tunes:
* All the Things You Are (Ab, C, Eb, G, E)
* Cherokee (Bb, Eb, B, A, G, F)
* Body & Soul (Db, D, C)
* Joy Spring (F, Gb, G, Eb)

**TommyCorsica2** · 12-01-2015, 04:13 PM

Along with the Affective Key Characteristics above, remember that many composers/musicians -- Duke Ellington and Jerry Garcia to name a random two -- are born with Synesthesia, which means they experience musical tones as distinct colors or flavors. To them, each key has a "color" or "flavor" that is distinct from other keys and so they when they compose they choose the best key/flavor for that song.

Read "Musicophilia" by Oliver Sachs for a fascinating review of musical-brain disorders. (Like the guy who never played a note of music until one day he gets struck by lightening, survives and becomes obsessed with classical piano to the point that his entire life changes.)

**docbop** · 12-01-2015, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I wonder if I'll ever do that. I run lots of things through all 12 keys but I've never bothered to play, say, "Satin Doll" or "There Will Never Be Another You" in all 12 keys. I know it is necessary to be able to play in all keys but I don't know how much advantage there is to playing every tune in all 12 keys. Blues, yes. Rhythm changes, yes. But "Yardbird Suite"? I think not.

So much is learned doing it ear training because you want to transpose by ear. Fingerboard knowledge seeing different shapes of intervals and looking for different shift points and etc. Using different registers of the guitar and how the sound improves or doesn't the melody. Each time working more and more on phrasing and the melody vocabulary to learn. Trying simple chord melody and that gets into using more or new voicings. What seems like a task can be a great teacher of many things at once if you change how you view it. A lot of what people practice teaches multiple things if you change how you view it.

**jdazey** · 12-10-2015, 06:35 PM

I was listening to a couple of guitar players and a bassist choose what key they'd do the next song in. I asked one of them about it, and he said the fingerings are different. Sometimes they'd choose an easy one, sometimes they'd go for the challenging ones. It became a matter of what was technically entertaining. And then what was easy for one wasn't for the other. Anyway, it was nothing to do with the sound.