Lydian Chromatic Concept explained simply

[eh6794-2.0]

"What's a 2 5 1?"
Joe Pass

[Christian Miller]

Beginning, Middle, End

[BWV]

I was rather reminded of a line or two of Byron:

'And Coleridge, too, has lately taken wing,
But like a hawk encumber'd with his hood,
Explaining Metaphysics to the nation—
I wish he would explain his Explanation.'

But actually this is very nicely distilled. Of course, the question is, what do with these scales?

Dont take it too seriously, just mess around with them, like Takemitsu did here, applying the LCC concepts to the Dorian mode, cooking up his own Dorian Diminished (023569A) and Dorian Augmented scale (024589A):

dont see how the LCC helps on standards though

[Christian Miller]

Dont take it too seriously, just mess around with them, like Takemitsu did here, applying the LCC concepts to the Dorian mode, cooking up his own Dorian Diminished (023569A) and Dorian Augmented scale (024589A):

dont see how the LCC helps on standards though

Well it’s not meant to help with that I don’t think. I think it’s meant to offer resources.

The context I think players in the post-Aebersold world like me didn’t quite get when starting out

- theory used to be resources for improvisers who could already play jazz

- now, people expect theory to explain and teach jazz

[Durban]

LLC Some great things within the system, some UNEXPLAINED truths, use as you hear/will or dont use.


If you dont know what it is, it really does not matter, Bill Evans was just one who did, Wes i dont think used/knew. Charlie Christian never gave a flying Fook about it. nor did Parker or Bud.

[rodolfoguitarra]

George Russell says you can play F Lydian or F Lydian augmented over a G7 chord. I don't get the point in thinking this way. For me, it is much easier to think in terms of G Mixolydian and G Mixolydian #4, respectively.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Advancing Guitarist excerpt:

In addition to derivative and parallel, there are other ways of looking at chord-scale
relationships. Probably the most well-known of alternative chord-scale relationships
would be the Lydian Chromatic Concept. (It is beyond the scope of this essay to go into
any depth on the details of the Lydian Chromatic Concept. Anyone interested should
see George Russell's book, The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal
Organization). One appealing feature of the L. C. C. is that it is a complete and
consistent system within itself. One less apppealing feature is that it can tend to be
confusing to someone who doesn't already have a strong background in both derivative
and parallel thinking. Like any other approach, the L. C. C. has it's own distinct
advantages and disadvantages. I would call the L. C. C. a hybrid derivative approach
because, like derivative, you don't have to learn all the modes that you have to learn in
parallel. You do need to learn particular scales, in different relationships to chord-types,
but the "parent scales" are somewhat different than in normal derivative thinking.
I personally think that the most valuable aspect of the L.C.C. has to do with the way that
the author "looked at the overview." The way that he chose to organize it was one of
several possibilities. But the fact that someone could look this way is quite valuable, I
think. There are examples of L.C.C. thinking that I've found to be very useful. You'll find
some of them in this present volume. Again, I must add that my own feeling is that any
system has certain '1raps" built into it by virtue of being a "system." On the other hand, to
disregard the benefits and valuable aspects of someone's work just because it's a system
would be silly. So, my advice would be to check it out if you're interested, and take from it
what makes sense for you.

[GuyBoden]

I spent a while on L.C.C in my younger day's.

L.C.C has scale options that enable playing gradually more and more outside the tonality, depending on your scale choice.

So simply, it's a systematic way to choose a scale that includes more and more, so called 'outside notes'.

[Heybopper]

we did this last year at uni, im sure the examples in the book are over all the things you are getting further out each time. I dont have the book anymore but I remember really digging the sounds and examples maybe ill look at it again one day..
How about the George garzone, chromatic triad approach, that was pretty cool. I dont really play scales now apart from some from the melodic minor family. I mainly use chromatic lines and targeting chord tones. I have a few triad ideas that go from inside to out and some pentatonic side slipping. I remember practicing with a uni teacher and we spent a lot of time playing over tunes but soloing on them in a different key, so Stella in Bb is what the band play but you play your solo in eb.
It would be good to hear some examples in this thread so we can hear the sounds

[Jonah]

I spent a while on L.C.C in my younger day's.

L.C.C has scale options that enable playing gradually more and more outside the tonality, depending on your scale choice.

So simply, it's a systematic way to choose a scale that includes more and more, so called 'outside notes'.

Hm...
I think to me LCC was not intended to be just a practical tool for playing outside, but more about integral organization based on scales relationships, kind of modal tonality setup.. and I had difficulties with that because I did not really hear those relations and mostly I do not hear them now too to be honest. (I understand them but I do not hear them).
therefore to my hearing the organization is very arbitrary.
Not that I do not play modal or that I do not build up modal harmonic structures/changes... I do it quite a lot actually... but probably my general feeling is that I hear it in 2 ways: 1) it is either very loose functional tonality 2) or it is modal harmony but then I feel like there are no connections and no obligations, not integral system...

I would say that I find it a key feature of the modal harmony: there are no realtionships as it is, you just imply any relationships you wish with intentional playing.
For me this is the most interesting (and the opposite to functional tonality) about modal harmony...

[GuyBoden]

Hm...
I think to me LCC was not intended to be just a practical tool for playing outside, but more about integral organization based on scales relationships, kind of modal tonality setup.. and I had difficulties with that because I did not really hear those relations and mostly I do not hear them now too to be honest. (I understand them but I do not hear them).
therefore to my hearing the organization is very arbitrary.
Not that I do not play modal or that I do not build up modal harmonic structures/changes... I do it quite a lot actually... but probably my general feeling is that I hear it in 2 ways: 1) it is either very loose functional tonality 2) or it is modal harmony but then I feel like there are no connections and no obligations, not integral system...

I would say that I find it a key feature of the modal harmony: there are no realtionships as it is, you just imply any relationships you wish with intentional playing.
For me this is the most interesting (and the opposite to functional tonality) about modal harmony...

Did you notice that the LCC scales are in order of dissonance. So, the LCC scales are gradually using more and more, so called 'outside notes'.

Like a lot of others, I simplified the LCC chord scales to use scales I already knew. (Same LCC scales, but common names.)

Example LCC scales played over a F Major chord (in order of dissonance):

Lydian = F G A B C D E F
Lydian Aug = Phrygian b1 = MMM3 = F G A B C# D E F
Lydian Dim = Lydian b3 = HMM4 = F G Ab B C D E F
Lydian Aux Dim = Whole Half Dim = F G G# A# B C# D E F
Lydian Aux Aug = Whole Tone = F G A B C# D#
Lydian Aux Dim blues = Half Whole Scale = F F# G# A B C D D#

There's obviously all of the modes derived from these scales for other chords.

Info:
MMM3 = Melodic Minor Mode 3
HMM4 = Harmonic Major M4
Lydian Aux etc are LCC terms

(As stated, my LCC study was a long time ago, I rarely use LCC nowadays. Due to getting bogged down, mired in theory.)

[rodolfoguitarra]

Did you notice that the LCC scales are in order of dissonance. So, the LCC scales are gradually using more and more, so called 'outside notes'.

Like a lot of others, I simplified the LCC chord scales to use scales I already knew. (Same LCC scales, but common names.)

Example LCC scales played over a F Major chord (in order of dissonance):

Lydian = F G A B C D E F
Lydian Aug = Phrygian b1 = MMM3 = F G A B C# D E F
Lydian Dim = Lydian b3 = HMM4 = F G Ab B C D E F
Lydian Aux Dim = Whole Half Dim = F G G# A# B C# D E F
Lydian Aux Aug = Whole Tone = F G A B C# D#
Lydian Aux Dim blues = Half Whole Scale = F F# G# A B C D D#

There's obviously all of the modes derived from these scales for other chords.

Info:
MMM3 = Melodic Minor Mode 3
HMM4 = Harmonic Major M4
Lydian Aux etc are LCC terms

(As stated, my LCC study was a long time ago, I rarely use LCC nowadays. Due to getting bogged down, mired in theory.)

I understand that it organizes scale options by level of dissonance, but this names translations makes no sense to me.

[GuyBoden]

I understand that it organizes scale options by level of dissonance, but this names translations makes no sense to me.

Use what'ever mode names you like best.

MMM3 = Melodic Minor Mode 3
HMM4 = Harmonic Major M4

Info:
MMM3 = Melodic Minor Mode 3
HMM4 = Harmonic Major M4
Lydian Aux etc are LCC terms

[wolflen]

Did you notice that the LCC scales are in order of dissonance. So, the LCC scales are gradually using more and more, so called 'outside notes'.

Like a lot of others, I simplified the LCC chord scales to use scales I already knew. (Same LCC scales, but common names.)

Example LCC scales played over a F Major chord (in order of dissonance):

Lydian = F G A B C D E F
Lydian Aug = Phrygian b1 = MMM3 = F G A B C# D E F
Lydian Dim = Lydian b3 = HMM4 = F G Ab B C D E F
Lydian Aux Dim = Whole Half Dim = F G G# A# B C# D E F
Lydian Aux Aug = Whole Tone = F G A B C# D#
Lydian Aux Dim blues = Half Whole Scale = F F# G# A B C D D#

There's obviously all of the modes derived from these scales for other chords.

Info:
MMM3 = Melodic Minor Mode 3
HMM4 = Harmonic Major M4
Lydian Aux etc are LCC terms

(As stated, my LCC study was a long time ago, I rarely use LCC nowadays. Due to getting bogged down, mired in theory.)

Thanks Guy..Really like your approach to licks and this kind of "out there" stuff

[wolflen]

I understand that it organizes scale options by level of dissonance, but this names translations makes no sense to me.

Yeah..LCC is not for everyone..

This may help a bit..we are using the the F lydian scale .. and then altering it (beyond recognition!)

So the Lydian augmented =MMM3..so the lydian scale has the 4th degree raised already so now we add the fifth degree raised (aug)

FGABC#DE..then he is also referencing the third mode of the Melodic minor scale.so if the root of that mode is F..the MM scale is D

D E F G A B C#..and the third mode is F G A B C# D E

the rest of the names take a bit more convoluted study..I don't have the time to digest right now

yeah I know its a map written on acid...hope this one scale helps a bit

[Bob_Ross]

fwiw I took a semester of The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization taught by George Russell himself at the New England Conservatory of Music circa 1994

...and while it was a fascinating course that gave me a few useful insights on how to compose over "jazz changes" [sic], even Professor Russell himself (RIP) was forced to admit that he didn't have the intellect to fully back up his assertions about how The Concept related to physics/acoustics/science/all the other crap that he initially claimed was why The Concept was preferable to more conventional chord-scale theory.

He just liked the way it sounded.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

[rodolfoguitarra]

fwiw I took a semester of The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization taught by George Russell himself at the New England Conservatory of Music circa 1994

...and while it was a fascinating course that gave me a few useful insights on how to compose over "jazz changes" [sic], even Professor Russell himself (RIP) was forced to admit that he didn't have the intellect to fully back up his assertions about how The Concept related to physics/acoustics/science/all the other crap that he initially claimed was why The Concept was preferable to more conventional chord-scale theory.

He just liked the way it sounded.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

Interesting, because there are several people discussing the book and bringing up the most far-fetched interpretations.