Bass Clef - WTF?

[JazzinNY]

Every so often, something is written in bass clef. The way I deal with it is, draw another line underneath it, and it looks like the regular clef.

So the question is, why does anyone use the (very confusing) bass clef in the first place?

[Hep To The Jive]

I bet bass players would ask the sane question only regarding treble clef

[grahambop]

Having different clefs helps accommodate the different pitch ranges of different instruments.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef

[fumblefingers]

Don't ever look at a full orchestra score (or take up piano), you'll be in a constant state of WTF, lol

[docbop]

Every so often, something is written in bass clef. The way I deal with it is, draw another line underneath it, and it looks like the regular clef.

So the question is, why does anyone use the (very confusing) bass clef in the first place?

Be glad you don't play violin with C clef, movable clef. or bass which sometime switched clef to make it easier to read versus ledger lines. Guitar is a transposed and should be n bass clef where it sounds. Long run good to read in both clefs because sometime they will hand you a piano chart on a gig.

[JonR]

Guitar is a transposed and should be n bass clef where it sounds.

Actually that just results in the reverse problem from using concert treble clef.
In the latter, without transposition, a major part of the range is way off the bottom, unreadable numbers of ledger lines.
But on concert bass clef, a major part of the range would be above the staff.
If we wanted to keep pretty much the whole range in the picture, we'd need piano double stave!
(I know you know all this )
Middle C is actually (roughly) in the middle of the range of guitar, as it is with piano. Guitar is a mid-range instrument, neither particularly high (treble) nor low (bass). It actually encompasses the exact same range as the four main classical vocal registers, from low bass E to soprano top C.
As a mid-range instrument, therefore, the ideal single stave clef would be the alto or tenor clef, where middle C passes through the centre of the clef. But who wants that???

In fact, in guitar music the transposed treble clef should strictly be called a tenor clef, because it no longer covers the treble register. Sometimes a little "8" is added on the bottom to indicate the transposition. But then we already have a "tenor clef", so that would be confusing.
That's because "treble", "bass", "tenor" etc are ranges to which the clefs have been traditionally allocated. The real (original) names for the clefs are the notes they indicate on the staff - the register associations came later.
So the treble clef is really a "G" clef, because it indicates the G line (by circling round it), and was originally a letter G - i.e., it's telling you "this line is G".
The bass clef is really an "F" clef, again because it indicates the F line (with the blob and two dots), and was originally a letter F.
The G clef happened to end up indicating upper registers and the F clef lower registers, because they fit neatly either side of middle C.
The alto and tenor clefs (and the other similar ones you showed) are all "C" clefs, in which middle C is on the line passing through the centre of the symbol. They were also originally a square version of the letter "C", although that's harder to see in the ornate, evolved design.
The very first clef (AFAIK) was a C clef.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Every so often, something is written in bass clef. The way I deal with it is, draw another line underneath it, and it looks like the regular clef.

So the question is, why does anyone use the (very confusing) bass clef in the first place?

I don't know where you're running into bass clef, but being able to read it is pretty handy. It's really worth learning as its own thing, because as you note, the transposition tactic is much more frustrating. Initial PIA learning, but worth it, kind of like learning TenKey on your keyboard for numbers etc.

Being able to read bass clef for playing bass is a pretty valuable skill for guitarist anyway. Also, if you look at anything for piano, like mentioned above...

[JazzinNY]

I'm just seeing it in odd places -- like "4 on 6" in the Real Book as I recall.

And in a theory book by William Russo. He'll just suddenly use Bass Clef for no clear reason.

I guess what I don't understand -- admittedly I don't play piano --

it's only one bar line difference, right? How does one bar line account for the difference in pitch if bass is much lower than guitar?

[jordanklemons]

Generally, when you are seeing it, (unless you reading piano charts) it's because they're showing you the bass line. The bass player almost always reads his parts in the bass clef.

Yes, the pitch names are only one line/space away... which is a useful trick to learning to read it in the beginning...

But the actual sound is far lower. The E on the bottom line of the treble clef would be written 2 ledger lines above the bass clef to achieve the same octave.

It's written in 4 on 6 with bass clef because they're showing the bass line. Can't speak to the theory book. But probably similar idea... showing bass movement. Or piano parts.

It prevents from having to use 10 ledger lines below the treble clef.

[JazzinNY]

It prevents from having to use 10 ledger lines below the treble clef.

Okay, this I get now.

[Nate Miller]

"like "4 on 6" in the Real Book as I recall."

that's a Wes tune, and since its a transcription, it is noted where it sounds, and not notated like guitar music

that's why the bass clef

[grahambop]

I'm just seeing it in odd places -- like "4 on 6" in the Real Book as I recall.

And in a theory book by William Russo. He'll just suddenly use Bass Clef for no clear reason.

I guess what I don't understand -- admittedly I don't play piano --

it's only one bar line difference, right? How does one bar line account for the difference in pitch if bass is much lower than guitar?

Best way to visualise it is as one continuous entity, like a piano score. So (on the piano, i.e. concert pitch) at the 'low end' you have 5 lines of bass clef. Above it is 5 lines of treble clef. The note middle C sits right in between them on its own single leger line. So if you go one line above the bass clef, you hit middle C. If you go one line below the treble clef, you hit middle C.

Of course this is then complicated on guitar music by the fact that it is written transposed by one octave to make it fit on the treble clef. So middle C on the piano (the note between the 2 clefs) is actually the C on the B string first fret on the guitar. Which is written in the third space up in the treble clef in guitar music!

It might have all been easier if guitar music had been written from the start in concert pitch, spread over bass and treble clefs, like the piano. Then guitarists would all be able to read piano scores, they could read bass parts, and you wouldn't have to transpose the melody line in the fakebooks up an octave. (They are usually written in C concert so they usually sound an octave too low if you just sight-read them straight onto the guitar).

Ain't it fun.

[grahambop]

Transposition of different instruments is a minefield. A colleague who played the trumpet once argued with me about how a note on the trumpet sounds, compared to concert pitch. He understood it completely the wrong way round, which I found bizarre! (Trumpet is a Bb instrument, so if you want a trumpeter to sound a C in 'real terms', you have to write a D in his trumpet part. This guy was convinced it worked the other way round, i.e. when he sees a D in the trumpet score, what he plays sounds as an E!)

On another occasion I found myself trying to explain to a baffled fellow parent waiting outside the school gates, why his son's trumpet had its own music, with different notes to the other instruments. Apparently his son had been playing along from sheet music (concert score) with his schoolmates' rock band, and he couldn't understand why they all kept shouting at him that he was playing the wrong notes! When I explained the whole concept of the family of transposing brass instruments (so a player can play both Bb and Eb instruments with the same fingering), he just couldn't get it and got quite irate! In the end he got so angry he seemed to be blaming me personally for the whole historical setup. I was quite relieved when my kids came out of school and I could escape!

[Dave70]

It might have all been easier if guitar music had been written from the start in concert pitch, spread over bass and treble clefs, like the piano. Then guitarists would all be able to read piano scores, they could read bass parts, and you wouldn't have to transpose the melody line in the fakebooks up an octave. (They are usually written in C concert so they usually sound an octave too low if you just sight-read them straight onto the guitar).

Ain't it fun.

Yes indeed. It's good to be able to read bass and treble clef. Johnny Smith thought so too. his "Johnny Smith Approach to Guitar" book is in actual pitch with both clefs.

[JonR]

It might have all been easier if guitar music had been written from the start in concert pitch, spread over bass and treble clefs, like the piano. Then guitarists would all be able to read piano scores, they could read bass parts, and you wouldn't have to transpose the melody line in the fakebooks up an octave. (They are usually written in C concert so they usually sound an octave too low if you just sight-read them straight onto the guitar).

Yes, except that guitar parts would then take up twice as many pages as necessary.
One of the principles of notation is economy.

[aleksandar]

Transposition of different instruments is a minefield. A colleague who played the trumpet once argued with me about how a note on the trumpet sounds, compared to concert pitch. He understood it completely the wrong way round, which I found bizarre! (Trumpet is a Bb instrument, so if you want a trumpeter to sound a C in 'real terms', you have to write a D in his trumpet part. This guy was convinced it worked the other way round, i.e. when he sees a D in the trumpet score, what he plays sounds as an E!)

On another occasion I found myself trying to explain to a baffled fellow parent waiting outside the school gates, why his son's trumpet had its own music, with different notes to the other instruments. Apparently his son had been playing along from sheet music (concert score) with his schoolmates' rock band, and he couldn't understand why they all kept shouting at him that he was playing the wrong notes! When I explained the whole concept of the family of transposing brass instruments (so a player can play both Bb and Eb instruments with the same fingering), he just couldn't get it and got quite irate! In the end he got so angry he seemed to be blaming me personally for the whole historical setup. I was quite relieved when my kids came out of school and I could escape!

Hahaha, that was hilarious! Although, to be honest, because I am not formally trained musician, I don't understand why there is such thing as "transposing instruments" either, I guess I have to educate myself a bit more on that.

About the bass clef, I simply started reading it a third above compared to the treble clef, and then you simply remember where the notes are.

[JonR]

Hahaha, that was hilarious! Although, to be honest, because I am not formally trained musician, I don't understand why there is such thing as "transposing instruments" either, I guess I have to educate myself a bit more on that.

Assuming you're a guitarist - - one way to get it is to put a capo on fret 3.
Play a "C" chord shape. What comes out is a concert Eb chord.

If you were playing from a chord chart - again making an assumption that you're a relative beginner - you'd probably want to see symbols for the shapes you're using, rather than the sounds you're producing (that's the whole point of the capo, to give you easy shapes for tricky keys). So when an arranger wants you to play an Eb chord, he'd write "C" on your chart. If he wanted you to play a C, he'd write "A" for your shape.

Now you're in the exact same position as alto sax players. They see what looks like "C" on a chart, play the note they call C, and out comes an Eb.

To imagine yourself in the same position as a tenor sax player, you'd need to tune down a whole step. Then when you played a C chord shape it would come out as concert Bb.
(In fact, Paul McCartney did this for Yesterday: it's in the key of F, but he played a guitar tuned down so he could use "G" shapes. For his voice of course, not for any other reason.)

The advantage for sax players is that all the instruments have the same fingering. A "C" on the music is played the same way whether they're playing soprano, alto, tenor or baritone. It just sounds as either Bb (sop, ten) or Eb (alto, bari) - different octaves in each case. So it's the poor old arranger who has to work out how to get the notes he/she wants, by transposing each part accordingly. (Luckily software will do it for you now.)

If you were tuned a whole step down, and then put a capo on fret 5, that would be like a tenor sax player putting his instrument down and picking up an alto. You're reducing the length of your strings, in the same way the sax player is reducing the length of his instrument. But you can both keep the fingerings you know for (say) a C chord (or arpeggio or scale pattern relative to the capo as zero), and not have to think about the transposition issue (that the sound is different).

[aleksandar]

I see...So it turns out that those horn players are some lazy blowers And why don't we guitarists have like 15 transpositions for every fret where a capo could be placed?

[Sandaun]

The history side of it is all connected with the trumpet, as it happens. Somehow, the trumpet was always annotated in the G clef in the key of C, with the composer scribbling in the margin that it was to be played with the F or G or B or whatever crook needed to put the natural trumpet into that key.

So it kind of stuck.

Then the clarinet came along - you know, the clarinet is named after the clarino register of the natural trumpet? The really high register, that is. One of its earliest uses in orchestras was to play trumpet-like parts down relatively low, where you couldn't get anything chromatic from the natural trumpet. So, in keeping in with the trumpet tradition, it was written in the key of C with notation, just like a trumpet - oh, and the clarinet was made in a pile of different keys, so the clarinetist would be able to play in tune when he needed to. Chromaticism together with being in tune came along quite late, courtesy of one Herr Boehm and several other gentlemen.

So when the trumpet and the clarinet standardized on the Bb for the orchestra and whatever, they likewise settled for the Bb transposition.

Eb transposition for Eb tubas, alto/tenor horns, soprano cornets and alto and baritone saxophones followed in due course - largely due to one Mr Sax. He not only created the saxophone family, he also made another few instrument families, such as the saxotromba and the saxhorns. Only the alto/tenor and baritone horns remain of the saxhorn family; saxotrombas exist only in museums.

That's a potted history of the Bb transposition for you - and if you do meet up with a kid who's playing as off-tune as that poor kid mentioned previously, the thing to do is get his dad to buy him a C trumpet. That's the only kind thing to do until the kid grows up and learns some sense ...

[ronjazz]

I keep a 7-string guitar tuned down a step for working with tenor, clarinet and trumpet players. That way we can read off the same page, whether it's a "C" book or a "Bb" book.

[aleksandar]

Yes, I understand the history of it. It's just that I can't relate to it, as a guitarist. For example, I don't use a capo much, I have it, but I use it for setting up my guitar. But when I used it on some occasions, I never thought of it as playing a C major if the capo was placed, say on the 4th fret. I always thought of it as playing E major, and if reading from sheet music, I'd read it as E major. So my point is, why can't horn players do the same, like they know they are using fingerings for C major or C scale, but they are playing on a Bb instrument, that is, they are using a capo, so to speak?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yes, I understand the history of it. It's just that I can't relate to it, as a guitarist. For example, I don't use a capo much, I have it, but I use it for setting up my guitar. But when I used it on some occasions, I never thought of it as playing a C major if the capo was placed, say on the 4th fret. I always thought of it as playing E major, and if reading from sheet music, I'd read it as E major. So my point is, why can't horn players do the same, like they know they are using fingerings for C major or C scale, but they are playing on a Bb instrument, that is, they are using a capo, so to speak?

It's an artifact, like the metric system in the U.S. I mean, what would you do with all the people who read the old way? :-)

In reality , common practice is to now have school kids learn all the same concert pitches at the same time anyway . So, it would be really nothing for them to learn concert pitch, other than ledger line issues . I can't imagine that that would be an issue for B-flat instruments. But maybe there's some other factor I'm not considering.

[Sandaun]

I felt a bit irritated when I was getting back into music - there was all this music written in a way that didn't make much sense to me - I mean, played a tone lower than it was written? I mean, come on!!!

Then I looked at the prices of the C trumpets and the (very few) C Melody tenor saxophones and the (non-existent) F alto saxophones, and I thought, it doesn't really matter. If it's written for common or garden trumpets, saxes, clarinets and whathaveyous, then I know what's going on, I can transpose on the fly if need be - and of course, if it's a lead sheet, it'll have the guitar chords they're expecting to hear, which'll be a tone above what the score's key is, which suits me fine.

It's a habit you get into, and once you've got it, it's no big deal.

As far as bass (F) clef goes, I can read it on bass guitar, cello, and trombone; if necessary I would find I knew what to do on the guitar (largely due to my experiences with the bass guitar: same string in standard tuning, just an octave higher). So far I haven't had to; I'm not losing sleep over that.

my 0.02cents, for what very little they're worth ...