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Is it possible, or even common, to make all the dominant chords that resolve a 4th up into 7b9 chords (licks)? In a jazz blues this would be bars 1,4 (I7 going to the 4 chord), but also bar 8 (VI7) and 10 (V7).
The I7b9 and the VI7b9 share the arpeggio notes if you skip the roots.
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03-28-2016 05:41 AM
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What do you think? Do you like the sound?
Originally Posted by kofblz
What players have you checked out to see what they do?
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I like the sound of IV7b9 in measure 6 going back to the I7.
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Great in Bar 4 of a blues, especially a minor Blues.
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I agree with Gumbo, that is a safe spot. Anywhere else is pretty subjective
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I'm not being funny here, but what does that actually mean? I'm not following you. Originally Posted by joe2758
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I meant it to mean debatable whether or not it sounds good/appropriate, as where in that particular spot most people wouldn't argue that it sounds out of place.
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The scary thing about music is that it's all subjective. That's why I find the OP kind of odd. Originally Posted by joe2758
I want to say: who are your favourite players? What do they do on a blues? Why is this being put to commitee? Do you think it sounds good?
As far as I go, I hear and feel that 7b9 is always acceptable when moving to another chord a fourth higher. In the same way any ii-V can be substituted for a minor ii-V when soloing. I learned this from being told that this was acceptable by Barry Harris, but in fact this is neither here nor there, because it's what I have found in the music of Charlie Parker et al. I like the dark sound of the b9, often articulated through the use of the diminished seventh arpeggio, or the use of a backdoor #1/imperfect cadence/phrygian dom type substitute.
There are places he is more likely to that than others (VI7 for example, or bar 8 of a jazz blues), but I wouldn't say that these sounds could ever be ruled out in Bird's music.
But maybe you don't like the way that sounds always... Swing players tend to use the 9th chord on the secondary dominants more often, for example....
That's completely your call and is shapes your style as a player.... So yeah, it's all subjective IMO.Last edited by christianm77; 03-29-2016 at 10:50 AM.
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*shrug* It's fine... it will just sound less bluesy, as where that particular spot will not affect the mood. So someone with a developed ear, like yours Christian, can make calculated choices to that effect. I wouldn't personally tell a student "you can play a b9 anywhere that resolves up a fourth in a traditional blues context" it just doesn't work everywhere.
Last edited by joe2758; 03-29-2016 at 10:54 AM.
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I see what you mean... I don't think I think that way. To me a 12 bar blues hasn't got a mood. It's just a form. The Blues (with a capital B) in another sense, is a mood, or even a tempo. Early jazz tunes entitled blues often have nothing to do with the 12 bar form. It's confusing because we use the same language for different things. Originally Posted by joe2758
I think you can play the Blues on a standard, and I think you can play functional bop language on a blues. It's good to have control over these aspects, because if you get a Ray Charles style 12/8 Georgia or something and you blow bop lines over the top it's sounds like you are trying too hard - in fact, you need to play the Blues. On the other hand you can't play bop on something like Sippin' at Bells without being able to run the changes with a vengance, which does sound less bluesy.
Of course Bird had both colours developed to the most fantastic degree in his playing which is not always true of the later bop players who can often be less bluesy. I like to give the example of Confirmation - take a look at what happens on the Bb7 chord, for example - he's playing the blues, right? Loads more...
So for me - it's about having a sensitivity and an awareness of your materials which isn't going to come from an internet forum. You have to listen carefully and see what you think. The sooner you get into doing that the better, IMO.Last edited by christianm77; 03-29-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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right I was referring to a bluesy blues. good points
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IIRC, in one of his Hot Licks videos, Joe Pass recommends not to use a 7b9 sound in a blues, and then later on in the same video uses a 7b9 chord in a blues.
. It's obviously just down to Joe's personal taste.
Personally, I think they're perfectly usable, but I would tend to use them as a passing chord, most likely preceded by a 7#9 voicing, particularly in bar 4, but there would be plenty more possibilities.
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The Jazz Blues course that this forum has actually makes use of this musical device. Originally Posted by kofblz
In teaching variations of the Blues Progression, it teaches on in which the VI7b9 is used in measure 8. The example they use is in an F Blues Jam, with D7b9 going to the measure 9, which traditionally has the V7. (They actually use a substitute for the C7 with Gm7, before going on to the C7 in measure 10.
Finally, the D7b9 is used in the turnaround, repeating the same resolution going from measure 10 to measure 11.
You might find that you like these sounds as well, as Christian said, its all about the sound you like.
I sure wish I was experienced enough in Jazz to know if this device is favored in different songs, sub-genre's of Jazz Blues, or has its roots in certain parts of the U.S.
Its funny how historians seem to be able to pinpoint certain blues variations to regions, musicians, or points in history.
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Originally Posted by kofblz
Well, in short, everything is possible, just do it.
now then, if you want something that sounds good, try it, and if it sounds good, do it, it's that simple.
on the other hand, my composing philosophy is to compose from the top down, ie., I hear a melody
and the chords are those which bring out best the melody, just like the proper setting for a stone, which may, or
may not be, dom 7 b9. I may be just a minor triad, the song dictates the chords. Sometimes a thing like a b9
is just like different spice on a hamburger, depends on your liking. I like just the right chords, not too simple, not too sophisticated, for the melody. But, of course, on a song like " 'Round Midnight ", they gotta be sophisticated, the song style beckons for it. Blues ( unless minor blues ) to my ears, calls for simple chords, dominant, etc. The dom 7b9 typically is the five chord in a II V minor cadence ( i.e, || Am7b5 - D7b9 | Gm6 etc ) but it doesn't have to be.
But, that philosophy doesn't have to be yours, or anyones, just do it and see if you like it. That's how you grow.
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I think part of the confusion may lie in the definition of a blues progression as well. If I were to play:
Bb7 | % | % | % |
Eb7 | % | Bb7 | % |
F7 | % | Bb7 | F7 |
Probably not too much 7b9 except on the IV chord (Eb7) perhaps, as discussed.
However, I think of a jazz blues as something more like the following:
Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb6 | Bb7 |
Eb6 | Eo7 | Bb6 | G7 |
Cm7 | F7 | Bb6 G7 |
Notice that not all the Bb chords are 7's the way I hear them. This is a much more functional or changes oriented progression - the chords are in motion, so you wouldn't be playing a 7b9 for more than a bar anyway....
You can do this type of thing with any chord progression btw... Strip it down or build it up...
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Thanks to all. This is sort of the discussion I wanted. I've notice the 7b9 can take away from the bluesy feel and wanted to hear comments addressing this. Having done the pentatonic and blues scales thing for years, I'm now doing the arpeggio thing and noticed that I seem to have fallen in love with the 7b9 sound, though it's not as bluesy.
And yes, I was only talking about a jazz blues, and mainly a major blues.
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Well there's your answer then. Use the sounds you like! Originally Posted by kofblz
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How about this?
Only the 4 highest strings shown to show the rather nice voice leading.
No rhythm for the comping shown.
This sequence together with many others is found in Jim Ferguson's
All Blues for Jazz Guitar Comping Styles, chords & grooves
Recommended like anything else by him.
(Sorry can't tab and spaces is lost when saved)
Bb13-------|Eb9-------|Bb13-------|Bb7#5#9
6 ---------|6---------|6----------|9
8 ---------|6---------|8----------|7
7----------|6---------|7----------|7
6----------|5---------|6----------|6
Eb9--------|EB9--Edim7|Bb13--A13b9|Ab13--G7#5#9
6----------|6----6----|6-----6----|6-----6
6----------|6----5----|8-----7----|6-----4
6----------|6----6----|7-----6----|5-----4
5----------|5----5----|6-----5----|4-----3
Cm9---Cm7--|F11--F13b9|Bb13--G7#5#9|Cm9--F7#5#9
3-----6----|10---10---|6-----11----|10---9
3-----4----|8----7----|8-----11----|8----9
3-----5----|8----8----|7-----10----|8----8
1-----5----|8----7----|6-----9-----|8----7
Last edited by runeo; 03-30-2016 at 08:28 AM.
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There are at least 2 aspects to consider when choosing chords.
1. Progressional
2. Accompaniment
1. Notes lead somewhere. How does the b9 of a given chord relate to where the music goes next.
Ex. Blues in G
G7b9 > C7
Ab is common tone b13 of C7
Ab is lower neighbor of 13 (A) and b7 (Bb) of C7
Ab is upper neighbor of 5 (G) and #11 (F#) of C7
C7b9 > G7
Db is common tone b5 of G7
Db is lower neighbor of 9 (D) and #9 (D#) and 3 (E) of C7
Db is upper neighbor of 1 (C) and b7 (Bb) of C7
Voices can of course also move in bigger intervals but my awareness generally starts with common tones and neighbors.
2. Chords most often are an accompaniment to a melody be it written or improvised. This can greatly influence the direction of our chordal choices.Last edited by bako; 03-30-2016 at 11:46 PM. Reason: typo
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A pretty good one for the mainstream duo gigs - nice bass on this one.
| Bb6 Bb7/D | Eb6 Eo7 | Bb/F Fm7 | Bb7 Bb/D |
| Eb6 | Eo7 | Bb/F F#o7 | G7b9 Bo7 |
| Cm7 Cm7/Bb | F7/A F7 | Bb G7 | Cm F7 |
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Just try it and listen to the voice movement of the b9 of the V7b9 chord moving 1/2 step down to the 5 of the I chord. When you want that sound, play it that way. But don't play it the b9 if another bandmate (including the vocalist) is playing a V9 chord there.
The tritone sub of a V7 chord is bII7. The b9 of the V7 chord is the same note as the 5th of the bII chord, so either chord gives you a similar voice movement. In fact, if you play V7b9b5 but omit the root of the chord, the remaining notes are the bII7 chord!
You can also try V7b9#5. In that case, the b9 will move down to the 5th of the I chord while the #5 moves up to the 3rd of the I chord. I like the sound of two voices moving in opposite directions if it doesn't conflict with notes my bandmates are playing.
Bottom line: Try your ideas in the practice room and listen to the voice movement. On the bandstand, use voicings that complement your bandmates.Last edited by KirkP; 03-30-2016 at 12:09 PM.
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Doesnt work for me in major blues, but in minor all the time. Everytime dom7b9 resolves to a min chord it works great. At the same time, if its a standard, especially bebop style, I like the sound of b9 resolving to maj 7 chord a lot.
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@bako - C7b7 > G7, shouldn't the C7b7 be C7b9?
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edh,
Yes, thanks for the proofread, I'll fix it.
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A point I don't think anyone has mentioned is that the reason it might sound appropriate on the IV7 chord but not elsewhere is that the b9 is the blues b5 of the key - so it's right "inside", in that sense: diatonic to blues scale. Originally Posted by kofblz
Also, IV7b9 is the same thing as #IVdim7 (a very common jazz sub, as mentioned). #IVdim7 is just a rootless IV7b9.
Even in the crudest blues, with just three major triads, melodic phrases on the IV chord will typically include the b9 (b5 of the key) as well as b7. So adding the b9 to the chord is just echoing that.
However, melodic phrases tend to resolve the b5 down to 4 (and on down via b3 to 1). The b9 on a IV7 chord tends (to my ears) to resolve upwards to the 5th of the I. So there is a potential "conflict of interest", if you like.
In fact, that's always the case with blues. The melodies - employing blues scale - always have a kind of arms length relationship with the chords: there's a constant tension between them, especially in jazz harmony, which wants to make chord changes more "interesting", even when it takes the whole sound of the music away from "blues", often leaving only the 12-bar form. In the best examples, of course, that tension is productive and expressive, and the blues can still "speak", through and above the chord changes.
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