Harmonic Analysis - I'll Be Seeing You

[boatheelmusic]

The first four chords in "I'll Be Seeing You" are Ebmaj7, G7(#5), Fm7 and C7(#5). Key is Eb.

Or I-III7(#5)-ii7-VI7(#5)

I'm struggling with how to think about this progression.

Any ideas for me?

Thanks!

[P4guitar]

Play the chord tones. Next, play the scales associated with those chords (the scales will have the chord tones embedded in them).

[boatheelmusic]

Thanks, seeking a more wholistic analysis if possible.

[TH]

Hi boatheelmusic
It's a lovely tune. I just got turned on to the movie that the tune is from. SO depressing. But a really good movie all the same.
The tune is also memorable. It employs a device called a secondary dominant. Those are chords the go to chords that occur naturally in a key. They occur as preparatory chords to sounds that are natural (diatonic) but they themselves aren't immediate members of the key family. So your analysis might be more accurately seen as

EbMaj 7 The I chord.
G7 b13 The secondary dominant chord creating tension that wants to go to the VI or C chord. Keep this in mind.
Fm7 is your II-7 or dorian chord, that belongs in the key. It gives you a sense that you're headed home to I.
C7 b13 looks like the VI7, but it's actually another secondary dominant, a chord that creates movement towards II

See the way those dominant chords, although they look like 7 chords where minors would be are actually followed by a chord or resolution somewhere down the line? The G7 goes to the C, which turns out to be another dominant going to the II.
This clever use of dominant chords is something I like to think of as chords in pairs, or dominants setting up movement to something else. Each of the secondary dominants, as they're called, is often a part of a chord it resolves to. That makes a push and pull throughout a piece that really gives a piece life.

If you create melodies using diatonic chords, and then go back and play them again, this time the chord preceeded by its own dominant chord a 4th down, you'll start to hear things in familiar compositions. Then you'll know where they're coming from and you can play organically with your own lines seeking resolution in the chords the dominants target.

Does this make any sense?
That's the way I see it anyway. Feel free to call me on this take, or look at them differently. This is just one way to make some sense out of why the piece works so well. For me...

David

[boatheelmusic]

Truth, this is just what I was looking for!

something to study and learn in most every tune.....

Thanks again,

Bill

[gggomez]

Light bolb moment thanks Truthertz and boatheelmusic for posing the question.

[boatheelmusic]

David, so in looking at it, measures 9-12 are an uber simplified restatement of measures 1-4?

[TH]

David, so in looking at it, measures 9-12 are an uber simplified restatement of measures 1-4?

I don't see it that way so much. Of course they're related, but the first part of the piece is really strong in the feeling of the major, right? Hum it and play the chords. The C minor, that strong relative minor, casts a darker harmonic mood as a contrast to the first part. So after that, I hear that II chord in a darker way, in combination with trying (twice) to get back to the resting release of that Eb.
From a functional harmonic perspective, the II in the first part, that step-wise upper companion chord to the tonic, that's an important chord. It gets its own secondary dominant chord. It has a gravity of its own.
In the second part, yes that II- is there but it's part of the II V pairing that's trying to get back home to I.

Of course this is a subjective interpretation, but it's this narrative that I keep in mind when I'm constructing a solo so there can be some kind of story and logic to my phrasing.

Long answer to your question, Bill, measures 1-4 and 9-12 both use the II- chord with different secondary dominants to point you towards some movement. Different targets, so try to bring out different feelings from the same chord.

I hope this makes some sense. I know it takes time before a spread of notes transforms from notes in a row to a message in a line. Keep working on it. Sing some lines too. Use rhythm to create space and shadow. Keep your phrases short to hear their character. Play with your ears and do listen to other people doing this song. Frank Sinatra's version lets you hear the drama of the song without getting distracted by too much note-obsession.

Work with the piece A LOT. Get it off book. In your ear, and please share your progress with us all. I'm really curious.
David

[boatheelmusic]

Again, very helpful....

I will study your thoughts.

And, I'll post a recording when it's soup!!

This may be a good candidate for the "Practical Standards" thread.

Thanks again,

Bill

[PMB]

I appreciate your analysis, David but I tend to hear that first change, Ebmaj7, G7(#5), F-7 in terms of voice-leading via augmented harmony. Stripping the chords back to triads (Eb, G+, F-), the voice-leading is: Eb-Eb-F, G-G-Ab, Bb-B-C. We can substitute an Eb+ for the G+ as augmented harmony is symmetrical, e.g. Eb+ = G+ = B+. Therefore, Eb+ can be regarded as simply a passing chord from the I (Eb) to ii (F-) chord.

A similar set of changes occur at the beginning of Someday My Prince Will Come. Transposed from the original key of Bb to Eb, in this instance the final chord in the sequence will be Abmaj7, the relative major IV chord in place of the ii (F-7) in our original example. Once again, stripping back the sequence Ebmaj7, G7(#5), Ab7 to triads, (Eb, G+, Ab) the voice-leading becomes clear and shows even less movement than that found in IBSY: Eb-Eb-Eb, G-G-Ab, Bb-B-C.

[TH]

I appreciate your analysis, David but I tend to hear that first change, Ebmaj7, G7(#5), F-7 in terms of voice-leading via augmented harmony. Stripping the chords back to triads (Eb, G+, F-), the voice-leading is: Eb-Eb-F, G-G-Ab, Bb-B-C. We can substitute an Eb+ for the G+ as augmented harmony is symmetrical, e.g. Eb+ = G+ = B+. Therefore, Eb+ can be regarded as simply a passing chord from the I (Eb) to ii (F-) chord.

A similar set of changes occur at the beginning of Someday My Prince Will Come. Transposed from the original key of Bb to Eb, in this instance the final chord in the sequence will be Abmaj7, the relative major IV chord in place of the ii (F-7) in our original example. Once again, stripping back the sequence Ebmaj7, G7(#5), Ab7 to triads, (Eb, G+, Ab) the voice-leading becomes clear and shows even less movement than that found in IBSY: Eb-Eb-Eb, G-G-Ab, Bb-B-C.

Nice. I like that.
I'll note that there are lots of times when I'm playing a chord melody, comping or soloing that my actual chord choice will defy an existing harmony. Often it will be for the sake of voice leading, sequencing or to carry through a logic that I hear. That's very much an ear choice, or a choice of chords based on my own harmonic lexicon.
For me, when I think back on it, I see so many factours in play that in the end, it's a more general structural harmony that guides my perception of the piece, and my own ear that superimposes a movement, a line cliche, an internal chromatic line or even an inserted chord for the sake of harmonic tension. I'm still aware of the underlying "harmonic philosophy" though, and that's the way I'd analyze it.
Yes, it's really interesting to see the layers we use when constructing a song, solo, phrase or composition.
I like this glimpse into different ways of seeing a piece.
For me, I like to see a solid functional and structural analysis, and create an aesthetic structure over that. That's the way I hear, and that's the way I see it. The simpler more essential analysis lets me make more on the fly reharmonizations in the long run. Interesting.

So PMB, when you're looking at a piece in terms of augmented harmony, does it make it easier to solo with this awareness and how much does your analysis play a role in your real time soloing?

David

[PMB]

I like to have as many options as possible including defying the changes. Ideally, the harmonic map and its various routes should be internalized before any real-time soloing occurs but I'd never discount lucky accidents! At any rate, it could be argued that chords are often convenient 'freeze frames' of lines in motion and in that sense it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish between structural harmony and voice-leading.

To answer your question regarding the application of augmented harmony, in its simplest instance I might choose to play in a motivic fashion and highlight the pitches in motion against those that remain static. Here's an example that outlines Eb, Eb+ and F- triads over the initial changes:



Another approach might be to extend the augmented harmony so that it covers the first two bars as Jonathan Kreisberg does in his version of IBSY from the album Night Songs:

[boatheelmusic]

Thanks for this discussion! It really helps in understanding this progression and options.

Bill

[TH]

Well this is becoming fun! If we look at the harmony in a more general way and take our thematic cues from the melodic structure of the tune itself, we can see a lesson in mindful solo construction.
I often see players, students, (people talking on the bus...), people rambling without an ostensible point. Players will play amazing gymnastics on changes without conviction or direction. This piece's melody offers a very effective example of how not to do that. It's thematic and motific.

The melody phrases don't pay tribute or obligation to EVERY change, but rather the mood that those changes carry or embody. Then the melody takes a simple idea and lays it over the top so you can hear something easily identifiable and simple so you can also savour the beauty of the harmony on an unstated level.
Take a look. The melody looks like a journey from the 3 note to the 1. (Curiously enough, take a look at the harmony. It also presents the journey of the Dominant on the III and finds its way back to the I). So the first melodic phrase is
3 2 2 1 7(as a chromatic approach back to...)1. on the I chord.
Then it moves to a primarily II chord area and lo and behold, there's that melodic motif this time in dorian: 3 2 2 1 chromatic approach to 1. It then repeats and sets up the next tonal area to...:
The relative minor. Here, the melody goes to... you guessed it. 3 2 2 1 chromatic approach to 1 and etc.
You can see that from a melodic, and a more general harmonic treatment of this piece, you can take the larger tonal areas and use them to develop evolving, or identifiable solo ideas.

Try this out. Take the larger tonal ideas suggested by the melody's use of the harmony and construct a motific solo.
It may give you yet further insight into how different interpretations can get you to make different solos.

Have fun
David

[Jonah]

Frankly speaking I believe that if reduce it to basic it's just I --- II - V

What I mean is that III7 (G7) does not sound to me here like real secondary dominant - but more like Eb+/G... It does not have strong functional tension in teh key of C... but sounds more like 'clouristic effect' to the basic I chord (in Eb)...

To my ear - we stay in the same functional and harmonic area just get a bit more tension or instability...

then we have ii-vi7-ii- vi7... it is definitely a local shift to the key of d minor (ii-v in f)... but in general it's just extension of of II...

(I would even expect here straight IV chord (after all ii-v comes originally from iv-v) - which more typical for soul music I guess... like I - III7 - IV - V)...


This more ear theory... as per practical approach for soloing... frankly speakin I personally would try to see scale-wise...
I aug (Eb+)
and then
IV aug (Ab+)

THis will cover all the harmonies and at the same time give the integral cocept for it...

it's optional though... what I like about it is the possibility to have in focuse Eb - B tones and Ab - E tones respectively - which to me gives interesting mingled with the changes

[KirkP]

What a great discussion! I'll go out on a limb...

It often helps me to attempt to harmonize the melody from scratch pretending I've never heard the tune before, then compare my result to how fake books and several definitive recordings have harmonized it.

The melody for the first three chords of I'll be Seeing You consists of only notes in the Ebmaj scale, so the first three chords could have all been chosen from the harmonized Eb scale. For example, Ebmaj7, Cmin7, Fmin7 works just fine over that melody, which is I, iv, ii. Ebmaj7, Gmin7, Fmin7 also works (I, iii, ii), and Ebmaj7, Gmin7, Cmin7, Fmin7 as well (I, iii, vi, ii).

Since all these options are based on the Eb harmonized scale, they're a bit boring. To add some interest, change the Gmin7 to G7 in the last option I listed. That's brightens things up and the G7 serves as a secondary dominant to the Cmin7 chord, without clashing with the melody.

But once you've played the G7, you've created such a strong expectation that Cmin7 will follow that perhaps you can skip Cmin7 altogether and jump straight to Fmin7, leaving us with I, III7, ii.

I don't know if this fits academic theory, but it's how I hear it.

[Jonah]

But once you've played the G7, you've created such a strong expectation that Cmin7 will follow that perhaps you can skip Cmin7 altogether and jump straight to Fmin7, leaving us with I, III7, i

yes i also thought about first... but when I listened and played a bit I heard something diferent

you see if it were Fm7 Cm7 in that case Cm7 still sounds ambivalent enough to be heard as both realted to G7 (as I to V) and to Fm7 (as V to I in minor F)...

but whent it's Fm7 Cdom7 it establishes V-I realtions in F minor so strongly that I cannot associate C7 with G7 in the context any more - if try to pretend it it sounds like a there's gap for me...

I think when we have I - III7 - VI7 changes it's important that they goconsequently if we want to keep the idea of consequential secondary dominnts - I think the most typical example would be 'All of Me''

But if we have I - III7 - Vl (minor chord) - then some variations are possible because VI has minor third of the original key - it can work here and there without geeting too much tension over...
This is also very typical - 'Georgia on my mind' I think is the most representative... or 'All the way'
but if we go in gospel blues I think almost every tune would use it... mostly as VII - III7-VI (and in 'Georgia' this turnaround must be also having some reference to gospels..
Oscar Peterson's 'Hymn to Freedom' also has gospel references using this turnaround...


But in 'I'll be seeing you' I hear it in another way...

Naturally I still hear G7 here as the same function of Ebmaj7 - If I had to describe it I would say 'it broadens the sound of I but still stays in teh same functional area'

If it's necessary to label it- I would call it as kind of Eb augmented inversion... at least from pont of view of terminolgy this describes more or less how I hear it

The most interesting use of this III7 this way to me is John Lennon's 'Imagine'

The refrain goes IV-V-I-III7/IV-V-I-III7

When I first played it as kid I was astonished - It should have had tension to go to VI for further development of the harmony.. but it sounded like a lead-chord to subdominant and very naturally and smoothly...It was actually harmonic sub either for C7 (in kek of C) or a lead-chord to IV (E-7b5) - both wok the same way functionally...

[Jonah]

The melody for the first three chords of I'll be Seeing You consists of only notes in the Ebmaj scale, so the first three chords could have all been chosen from the harmonized Eb scale. For example, Ebmaj7, Cmin7, Fmin7 works just fine over that melody, which is I, iv, ii. Ebmaj7, Gmin7, Fmin7 also works (I, iii, ii), and Ebmaj7, Gmin7, Cmin7, Fmin7 as well (I, iii, vi, ii).

actually even i-vi-ii-v works well for the melody (and I think even for some listners this change could stay unnoticed)))

this also shows more 'colouristic' use of harmonic changes here than really functional

[PMB]

The Imagine refrain (IV-V-I-III7/IV-V-I-III7) offers a clear instance of a stepwise melody that leaves itself open to harmonic reinterpretation. Try singing the line and substituting either a ii or vi chord as subdominant equivalents after the III7:

F-G-C-E7-F-G-C
F-G-C-E7-Dm-G-C
F-G-C-E7-Am-G-C

Interesting that you bring up Lennon, Jonah. His melodies, as with Sammy Fain's in IBSY often have little movement (drastically so in the case of Julia which is basically an exploration of a single note). Lennon mostly wrote at the piano or guitar and I feel he used instruments to provide the 'colouristic' harmonic contrast that you mention for an otherwise relatively static melodic environment. McCartney's melodies, on the other hand, seem to exist independent of their accompaniment as supported by the story about him jumping out of bed one morning to find the tune for Yesterday already fully formed. They generally cover a much wider range and are more harmonically specific and goal-oriented. Not surprisingly, this was often reflected in lyric content as well. Compare McCartney's optimistic chorus for We Can Work It Out with the monotonic melancholia (life is very short...) of Lennon's bridge!

[Jonah]

Thanks, PMB, great points...

I was The Beatles - and particulary - Lennon's fan in my teens... I think even now I can play and sing any song from memory completely (at least of The Beatles period))))

I absolutely agree with you about Lennon's approach to composing.. actually it's the fact that he composed with an instrument... and later in his last years he used to say that he preferred piano because it helped him to avoid cliches connected with common guitar fingering... Obviously Leenon was not accomplished guitar or piano player and his knowledge of the instruments was very limited... so probably he just tried this and that occasionally...

However he did it his work is always individual and recognizable...


You noticed he approach to melody - kind of monody I would ssay... like murmuring prayer or church recitals... his lyrics also often has this mood 'tired, lazy, dreamy, sleepy..' are common words in hius lyrics and there are whole songs dedicated to this feeling...
His singing is also very monotonous - even in bright fast songs... in his late years he mostly chewed gum whiled singing)))

His songs often sound simple musically- not to say simplistic - but often they have unexpected very special harmonic solutions...

Imagine mentioned above is very simple but therea some 'signature licks' that make it very special - 1) piano riff 2) melodic 'ah-aahh' before refrain 3) and this III7

That's where I would disagree with you - where you say

The Imagine refrain (IV-V-I-III7/IV-V-I-III7) offers a clear instance of a stepwise melody that leaves itself open to harmonic reinterpretation. Try singing the line and substituting either a ii or vi chord as subdominant equivalents after the III7:

F-G-C-E7-F-G-C
F-G-C-E7-Dm-G-C
F-G-C-E7-Am-G-C

If we look at these changes and tune abstractly - you are right of course...

But I think when we make any changes - reharmonizxations there are usually lots of factors that effect the possibility to make subs... I mean like we mostly can make tritone sub in almost any American pop song of the period... but we cannot make it in any Beatles song because the musical language is different....

If we make these changes in Imagine it will kill the song to me... because we take away one of the things that makes it special....

As I said I am sure that E7 here harmonically is the sub for C7 or E-7b5 or after all Am-7... but very special sub...


This is why actually I think that Lennon's songs are difficult to cover in jazz style... they keep their charms mostly in original arramgement and mostly in original performance (except maybe In My Life)


McCartney's gift belongs much more to traditional song-writing style... his language is much more conventional and easy to be adopted to jazz styles...

Lennon mostly wrote at the piano or guitar and I feel he used instruments to provide the 'colouristic' harmonic contrast that you mention for an otherwise relatively static melodic environment

This is great point!

In classical music we see the same thing... there were composers (especially from Romantic era) who involved instrumentalism in composition (Chopin, Rakhmaninov, Liszt etc.)... their musical language is strongly connected with instrumental effects and possibilities... and often this results in relative independence of melodic ideas from harmonic vehicle - the last is often moved by some other principles... which was practically impossible in Bach/Mozart period when melody always represented harmony...

In IBSY melody and harmony almost split into two layers that mix and mingle with one another like two sides of Moebius tape...

I will go as far as saying that this approach is basically 'modal' - if we speak of 'modus' in very general sence as of certain pattern, algorithmn establishing relations (not as of scale) ... in some cases finctional relations also may become a part of 'modus')

I like Billie Holiday's version the best... they use original harmony in the band and her way of singing - monotonous with microintonative variations flow in the ways of these ever chifting harmonies .. sounds like it is the eterninty