Superlocrian

[Tums]

Hello all

I am completely new to Jazz guitar, I recently started listening to it and really enjoyed it and decided I want to learn to play having only played rock and metal before. I decided to learn the melodic minor scale and noted the seventh mode is called Superlocrian. I already know the Harmonic minor scale and the fifth mode of that scale is also Superlocrian. But as far as I can tell the two scales are different by one note. I am confused. How can two different scales have the same name ? I am a newbie so perhaps I am missing something obvious or I have made a mistake ? You chaps seem very knowledgeable and I wondered if someone could point me in the right direction.

[medblues]

5th mode of Harmonic Minor is not named Superlocrian. That's a mistake. Many different names for it, I like Phrygian Major, wikipedia likes Phrygian Dominant. Spanish Phrygian and Mixolydian b9 b13 also.

[Tums]

Thanks Med blues

That was a mistake as I was referring to the 7th mode of the Harmonic minor not the 5th. I have always known that mode as Superlocrian but I just discovered that the correct name is Superlocrian Diminished which differentiates it from the Superlocrian mode of the Melodic minor scale. Figured it.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Hi Tums !
the 7th mode of the minor harmonic scale is usually named :
Ultra-Locrian
I use it quite often as a dominant mode
cheers
HB

[Boston Joe]

Thanks Med blues

That was a mistake as I was referring to the 7th mode of the Harmonic minor not the 5th. I have always known that mode as Superlocrian but I just discovered that the correct name is Superlocrian Diminished which differentiates it from the Superlocrian mode of the Melodic minor scale. Figured it.

Most people just refer to the seventh mode of the melodic minor scale as the Altered Scale.

Personally, I prefer functional names for modes (I.e, I'd rather hear a mode called, say, Mixolydian b9b13 rather than, say, Spanish Phrygian or Phrygian Dominant.)

[christianm77]

I agree with Boston Joe, most jazzers seem to call this scale the Altered. I think Superlocrian is a guitar thing, and sounds a bit pretentious and ridiculous to me in any case.

Nomenclature for scales is a tricky one. I try to keep it simple, but its not always possible. For example I see no reason to use the ancient greek names in jazz or pop theory.

The melodic and harmonic minor modes have particularly turgid and ugly names.

But in practice we have to use the names that other musicians use!

That said who's in favour of renaming the Mixolydian the Dominant scale? ;-)

[mr. beaumont]

Most people just refer to the seventh mode of the melodic minor scale as the Altered Scale.

Personally, I prefer functional names for modes (I.e, I'd rather hear a mode called, say, Mixolydian b9b13 rather than, say, Spanish Phrygian or Phrygian Dominant.)

Boy me too. Relate it to which "church mode" it's most like and then tell me the alterations.

[christianm77]

Hi Tums !
the 7th mode of the minor harmonic scale is usually named :
Ultra-Locrian
I use it quite often as a dominant mode
cheers
HB

Actually it's quite handy to have a name for this. I am an enthusiastic user of the ultra-locrian but I've never had a name for it.

The ultra locrian is the stock choice of bop musicians working on a diminished chord.

But I don't think of it this way lol. It's a dominant raise 1 scale. That's the way David Baker and Barry Harris define it, and it's a great definition because it links everything to a known scale - the dominant or mixolydian. That way you only need to think about one note rather than learn a whole new scale.

I think names do tell you something about the process of the scales creation.

- Superlocrian implies someone examining the modes of the melodic minor and comparing to the major modes - that is a mode

- Altered suggests someone looking at a major scale and flattening (altering) each note apart from the root - that is a scale

- A tritone minor 6 suggest someone taking the stock swing era iim6 on V7 substitute only subbing the V7 for a tritone sub (bII) and then constructing a m6 (melodic minor) scale over the top. That might seem convoluted, but it make sense from a certain perspective, and I believe this is the way it was understood by bop era musicians. - that is a chord substitution

[christianm77]

Boy me too. Relate it to which "church mode" it's most like and then tell me the alterations.

I usually say phrygian dominant, which I think is pretty clear - take a phrygian, raise the 3 so it becomes a dominant.

Depends on context though. If I'm playing changes I use the scale all the time on VI7b9 but I almost never now think of it as a harmonic minor mode, or a phrygian with a dicky 3rd or anything else.

I play a lot with a musician who has a background in Middle Eastern music and calls this scale Hijaz.

[A. Kingstone]

It's all Greek to me.

[Boston Joe]

That said who's in favour of renaming the Mixolydian the Dominant scale? ;-)

I be OK with that but I'd probably go for "Major b7" myself.

[joe2758]

I be OK with that but I'd probably go for "Major b7" myself.

aw c'mon guys I think we can at least all at least learn the major scale modes' names. I won't touch harmonic or melodic minor modes names with a ten foot pole; I like titles that Mr. B alluded to: Lydian b7, mixo sharp 4...all gives me the same info. I use that scale all the time and I literally have no idea which minor mode it comes from.

[christianm77]

I be OK with that but I'd probably go for "Major b7" myself.

I suppose the thinking behind the name Dominant scale is that the dominant scale goes on the dominant chord, major goes on the major and so on. In that scheme the mixolydianb9b13 would be the minor dominant scale or dom b2b6 scale or something. Altered would be for altered dominants.

Each scale can be defined by having the alterations necessary for the chord and no more, so

Major - 1 3 5 7 - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Minor or Minor 6 - b3 - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Minor 7th - b3 b7 - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Dominant - b7 - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Minor Key Dominant (V7 of harmonic minor) - b2 b6 - 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Dominant raise 1 - #1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 (so called because it often follows another chord a half step below)
Altered scale - everything - 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

And so on...

Now I think that's a pretty sensible system (and not that far from what BH uses.)

It'll never catch on.

[Robertkoa]

* Caution - Due to it's extreme nature the Ultra Locrian Mode ( which is beyond 'Super ') should only be used by experienced Jazz Players 35 years or over in controlled environments.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I learnt is as "Phrygian Dominant", but then again, I'm a recovering metalhead.

[JonR]

* Caution - Due to it's extreme nature the Ultra Locrian Mode ( which is beyond 'Super ') should only be used by experienced Jazz Players 35 years or over in controlled environments.

And with protective clothing.

[PMB]

Super Locrian - sounds like a Marvel Comic hero with a Scottish accent!

[princeplanet]

Hello all

I am completely new to Jazz guitar, I recently started listening to it and really enjoyed it and decided I want to learn to play having only played rock and metal before. I decided to learn the melodic minor scale and noted the seventh mode is called Superlocrian. I already know the Harmonic minor scale and the fifth mode of that scale is also Superlocrian. But as far as I can tell the two scales are different by one note. I am confused. How can two different scales have the same name ? I am a newbie so perhaps I am missing something obvious or I have made a mistake ? You chaps seem very knowledgeable and I wondered if someone could point me in the right direction.

With all respect, are you sure this is the first question you wish to ask as a newbie on a Jazz forum? Surely there are more important basic questions you could be asking, like "How do I make the Ionian scale sound like Jazz against a C maj7 chord ?".

[christianm77]

With all respect, are you sure this is the first question you wish to ask as a newbie on a Jazz forum? Surely there are more important basic questions you could be asking, like "How do I make the Ionian scale sound like Jazz against a C maj7 chord ?".

The shred metal mindset methinks.

[TH]

With all respect, are you sure this is the first question you wish to ask as a newbie on a Jazz forum? Surely there are more important basic questions you could be asking, like "How do I make the Ionian scale sound like Jazz against a C maj7 chord ?".

Or "If I play Ionian REALLY LOUD because, you know, I have an amp and they don't, is that SuperIonian?"
I don't know what the answer is, but a lot of guitarists use it. I think if you play it fast enough, it's SuperIonian too. A lot of guitarists do that too.

David

[Boston Joe]

A few years back, someone gave me scans of an out of print book of Mahavishnu Orchestra charts. Many of them indicated "Superlocrian" as the appropriate mode to use for solos. So it's not just metal guys who use the term. (Unless maybe it was a metal guy who did the transcriptions.) I remember being confused by the term because I hadn't heard it before. Then I looked it up and was like, "Oh, it's just the altered scale."

[Drumbler]

When plain old Locrian isn't enough, send for Super Locrian!

[Eric Rowland]

[guitarbard]

I always read the fifth mode of HM as the 'Phreygish' mode, heard in flamenco, as well as metal, and some modern rock, too, I guess. (Guitar player mag),,,,,also in Gypsy(fiddle, etc., not Django, but MAYBE !!!, also, I dunno), and other eastern european music,,, klezmer.