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shit man i arse around with the biii dim for days
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09-30-2016 04:21 PM
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Listen I'm not having you yanks appropriate 'arse.' You berks have completely ruined wank for everyone. You haven't got a scooby doo.
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i'm taking innit too.
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:-(
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Bob's your uncle.
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Not to me its not .... Originally Posted by christianm77
But if it works for you that's cool
There's no "right" answer here
Just whatever works ...
I'm just saying for me
It's gotta start with a I chord (or a iii chord
or vi chord)
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vraiment?In Canada we speak English. .
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Fanny's your Aunt Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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don't mind christian guys, he's all hat and no saddle
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Cattle? Originally Posted by joe2758
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i can't even be american right...
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I prefer the American Left at the moment ... Originally Posted by joe2758
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I've always just used the "diminished chords work fine anywhere" rule. And what's funny is if you go by the 3 "rules" JonR listed above, you essentially have a "theoretical" explanation for putting a diminished chord anywhere. There are only 3 different diminshed 7 chords. So "rule" no. 1 shows us that dim7 chords are used as dominant sub, e.g. B dim7, "rule" no. 2 the common tone would show us to use for example an Adim7, and "rule" no. 3 would tell us to use a Bbdim7.....Doesn't anyone else notice that means the real "rule" is: use any diminished 7 you want, because there is only 3 diminished 7 chords, and they are all covered by JonR's list.... Originally Posted by JonR
Dim7 chords have three uses. That is, there are only three possible ways in which they can relate to the following chord, and all ways are used.
1. The so-called "dominant substitution" is the most common, and is a misnomer, IMO. This is a chord in its own right, the viidim7 of the following chord. It has a "dominant function", but is not necessarily a replacement for the V7. In the key of A minor (eg), G#dim7 is the diatonic vii chord and and lead to Am without having to think of it as a "substitute" for E7. When leading to Am in another key, then it's a "secondary leading tone chord".
You recognise this usage when one note (any note) of the dim7 is a half-step below the root of the following chord.
2. The "common-tone diminished" is where one note (any note) of the dim7 is the same as the root of the following chord. This tends to lead to a major chord, and is marked by upward chromatic voice-leading in two other voices.
3. The only other possibility is where one note (any note) of the dim7 is a half-step above the root of the following chord - which is what's happening here. As Jonah says, this is normally just called a "passing" (or "chromatic") dim7, and typically it occurs between two minor chords a whole step apart, such as the iii and ii chord in a major key (as in "Night and Day"). In that case, you can sometimes see it as vii of the preceding chord - eg, in this case, replace Gmaj with Bm (a rootless Gmaj7
), and then Bbdim7 (A#dim7) could seem to work as vii of Bm.
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Right. But this - like any theory - is not about what you can and can't do. It's about observing what is done, and spotting patterns. Originally Posted by Guitarzen
It's not quite true that dim7 chords are used "anywhere". Whichever way they move - whatever chords you see either side - fall into patterns. It's not random; there are actually functional (voice-leading) reasons for each different application. E.g., between a specific pair of chords, it's not the case that any one of the three possible dim7s will work equally well.
I.e., as Einstein said: "things should be made as simple as possible - but no simpler."
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Yeah I wouldn't handle all dim7's the same way. There is a distinction. Originally Posted by JonR
Right. But this - like any theory - is not about what you can and can't do. It's about observing what is done, and spotting patterns.
It's not quite true that dim7 chords are used "anywhere". Whichever way they move - whatever chords you see either side - fall into patterns. It's not random; there are actually functional (voice-leading) reasons for each different application. E.g., between a specific pair of chords, it's not the case that any one of the three possible dim7s will work equally well.
I.e., as Einstein said: "things should be made as simple as possible - but no simpler."Last edited by christianm77; 10-01-2016 at 01:03 PM.
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no heart in theory. but this is a theory section. so. to get even more theoretical...
i dont relate any degrees other than I and V into function. yet i do understand why ppl tend to associate them like that. due to the old theory. actually thats only a naming. for the rules of subordination there are only I and V. and we have these from the overtone series. thats why i dont analyse this prog (e.g) C Bo Am G C as I VII VI V I. this neglects the very nature of tone.
and i also understand why ppl get confused by our chord Bbo7. bcos we tend to fit the chord into function or to its modal interchange position. yet we feel disappointed.
sure theres a thing like secondary function. but is Bbo7 fall into that category? when its apparantly not passing. so what is this? whats the nature of it? how the composer (or arranger) came up with this idea?
maybe because it sounds so good. but doesnt mean theres no any good explanation for this.
one thing for sure, they must be subordinated to I or V at lower level. in my theory. the progression map would be T-(PD)-D-(PD)-T which PD means pre-dominant and the later as post-dominant. ofcourse these chords are optional. they're filling in the space. subordinated. thus non structural. the way i see it, its like a colour gradation or a spectrum. where T and D are looked as the true or main colour. the colour could change gradually or in a large spectrum. and these sub-colours have their own spectrum. in other words, more subordination.
ofcourse theres much more than that. its not a perfect analogy but i think its good enough to reveal us the big picture.
and why spectrum? thats bcos the dichotomy between strong and weak progression. plus. every tone/degree has their own overtone series. that gives a ton of palette even more.
with this brief explanation we can raise a couple questions therein.
whats the function of this chord?
obviously it has no function. because its not I or V.
then where does it come from?
well. i see chord in two ways. vertical-horizontal. and i see chromatics also in two ways. substitution-embellishment.
we can ask. whats the difference between G/B and G?
if you look at it vertically its all the same. but when put in context (e.g) C-G/B-C and C-G-C the former is disfunctional. the movement of bass is much more important than whats written.
anyway.
Bb is a chromatic substitution. it replaces the B. and its written as bIII. vertical chord Bb-Db-E-G. the Db on other hand could be a passing tone (D-Db-C) to Am chord. or an appogiatura (B-C#-C). both way still the same. Theyre embellishing.
so there you go. Bbo7 is a substituted chord with embellished upper voice. but the real question is...
where is it subordinated?
[dun dun duuuuun]Last edited by EJGuitar; 10-01-2016 at 06:36 PM.
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Lol to you. Not even close. Originally Posted by EJGuitar
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I know this is old but, I'm also working through this today so... Originally Posted by mertas
Here's is my approach to analyzing this:
1. I like to look at this in context of functional harmony and try to break things down into their most simple forms and functions
2. Then try understand what the chord's role is. Here's is where the trick or art comes in because there isn't one right answer.
3. Specifically here, the Bbdim7 is simultaneously three other dim7 chords (I assume everyone here will understand that) including Gdim7.
4. Gdim7 is also exactly G#7b9.
5. Functionally - and here's where you'd have to take a leap of faith - If you take the additional tension off the G#7b9, you get a G#7, a dominant VII.
6. Even strictly speaking the VII in G Diatonic chord scale is G#-7b5, acts as a tension leading to the tonic.
7. And if we agree that we can treat all the other diatonic minors as dominants to add more tension, we can do the same here.
So, I think that the Bbdim7 in this progression is functioning as a a dominant VII with the purpose to add tension.
Try it, in Embraceble You, instead of the Bbdim7, play G#7. It sounds good.
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We actually had a long, drawn-out argument about this in the other direction with respect to Alone Together on another thread. But that biii diminished moving down to ii-7 is a really common turnaround chord. I was playing an arrangement yesterday of I'm in the Mood for Love, and it was in there.
Different arrangements of Bewitched ... lots of just old-school, swing-era turnarounds use that chord instead of the VI7 too.
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and it appears Christian brought this up eight years ago. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Thanks much Yes I guess I wasn't being very insightful.
But glad I came to a popular conclusion based on my own approach and analysis.
Thanks though for this extra information.
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Functionally it's a V of V. Treating it as Gb7 (phygian dominant, with a b9, AKA the major bebop scale) is the most inside way to play it (prob most old fashioned too).
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OMFG it is simply a chromatic passing chord from the I6 to IIm7. Just like Christian explained above. Originally Posted by bediles
There exist really complex problems on this planet but this is not one that has to become over-complicated. Surround a chord note from the II with two notes of the bIII diminished and you are done. Or stay on the two notes both chords share.
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Thanks for the constructive criticism. Originally Posted by Bop Head
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