Embraceable You - second chord in progression

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

He’s not particularly pleasant but he does happen to be right in this instance.

Sometimes the subs make the most sense as literal subs … a chord performing the same function as a different chord in the same place. We wouldn’t bend over backwards to make an A7 in the same place relate to the V chord on the other side of the ii … we would just say it’s a great way to voicelead from the I to the ii. So sometimes it just makes more sense to say the same thing about a different chord that falls in the same place.

I suppose you could thing of it the way you’re thinking of it, but if we go to a song where that V of V happens … But Not For Me, A Train, Dewey Sq, etc … is a 7b9 the sound you’re hearing people go for on that chord? Probably not.

And if that F# Phrygian dominant sound is what you hear people going for, then A7b9 isn’t really included there. How does Gb7b9 relate to that chord? Not diatonically. You’d have to say it’s by diminished substitution which just means you have to pass right back through the Bbdim7 to make the scale make sense in this context. And Bb (A#) diminished 7 happens to be diatonic to that scale.

SO it’s possible that you’re just hearing people play harmonic minor a half step up, which is a standard scale choice of the bebop era over a diminished 7 chord.

Which would mean they’re just playing a Bbdim and all that brain work was for nothing.

[Bop Head]

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

You're welcome

[pawlowski6132]

Functionally it's a V of V. Treating it as Gb7 (phygian dominant, with a b9, AKA the major bebop scale) is the most inside way to play it (prob most old fashioned too).

Ahh, yeah, I can see that too now. The V/V is A7, which is Bbdim7 (A7b9).

[bediles]

He’s not particularly pleasant but he does happen to be right in this instance.

Sometimes the subs make the most sense as literal subs … a chord performing the same function as a different chord in the same place. We wouldn’t bend over backwards to make an A7 in the same place relate to the V chord on the other side of the ii … we would just say it’s a great way to voicelead from the I to the ii. So sometimes it just makes more sense to say the same thing about a different chord that falls in the same place.

I suppose you could thing of it the way you’re thinking of it, but if we go to a song where that V of V happens … But Not For Me, A Train, Dewey Sq, etc … is a 7b9 the sound you’re hearing people go for on that chord? Probably not.

And if that F# Phrygian dominant sound is what you hear people going for, then A7b9 isn’t really included there. How does Gb7b9 relate to that chord? Not diatonically. You’d have to say it’s by diminished substitution which just means you have to pass right back through the Bbdim7 to make the scale make sense in this context. And Bb (A#) diminished 7 happens to be diatonic to that scale.

SO it’s possible that you’re just hearing people play harmonic minor a half step up, which is a standard scale choice of the bebop era over a diminished 7 chord.

Which would mean they’re just playing a Bbdim and all that brain work was for nothing.

Ok. Whatever works for you. Answer a thoery question on this forum and you're on gd trial. From what can gather you and I have similar education but I went to one of the top performace schools in my country. Definitely not trying to pull rank bc I am a nobody but just so you know im if not just a guy reading leavitt method 1 in his bonus room when the kids go to sleep.

The V of V rationale was a harmonic analysis of a chromatic dim bIIIdim to iimin to V7.

As far as improvising... whatever works for the level you're at or the way you like to think about things to make music. If dim is really scary then play the arp or ignore or VII maj triad (for the b3)

I may have posted this before, not to overcomplicate more to think, listen and look for the options.

biii dim to ii min
1. ignore - pat martino (how insensitive)
2. V of II play as 1 6 3 5 - wynton kelly
3. mi7 planing - Joe pass, wynton kelly
4. H/W Dim scale
5. 7th mode harmonic minor
6. VII7b9#9 - phrygian dom + #9 (maj bebop) resolve to the extentions of the ii chord - Coleman hawkins, wes
7. V of V - II7b9#9 resolve to V chord
8. Mixo rotations b3 up from dom b9 chords -less honoring of dim7, makes it a half dim
9. Harmonic major (changes b4 to 4)

Idim7
1. VII7
2. W/H

#ivdim7:
1. Ignore - most blues
2. H/W scale
3. VII7b9 - resolve to iii in maj
4. II7b9 - resolve to v on blues
5. Harm major
6. Mixo rotations b3 up from dom b9 chords (II7 and IV7 - this one is like ignoring) - less honoring of dim7, makes it a half dim

Any dom or sec dom dim:
1. Dim chord is 3rd degree of dominant
2. Multiple dominant scale options

[pamosmusic]

Ok. Whatever works for you. Answer a thoery question on this forum and you're on gd trial. From what can gather you and I have similar education but I went to one of the top performace schools in my country. Definitely not trying to pull rank bc I am a nobody but just so you know im if not just a guy reading leavitt method 1 in his bonus room when the kids go to sleep.

Lol. “I’m not trying to pull rank but my music school was better than yours.”

Noted. And probably true.

biii dim to ii min
1. ignore - pat martino (how insensitive)
2. V of II play as 1 6 3 5 - wynton kelly
3. mi7 planing - Joe pass, wynton kelly
4. H/W Dim scale
5. 7th mode harmonic minor
6. VII7b9#9 - phrygian dom + #9 (maj bebop) resolve to the extentions of the ii chord - Coleman hawkins, wes
7. V of V - II7b9#9 resolve to V chord
8. Mixo rotations b3 up from dom b9 chords -less honoring of dim7, makes it a half dim
9. Harmonic major (changes b4 to 4)

I would note, however, that you kind of made my point here.

Someone asks what this chord is, and your harmonic analysis would point that person to number 7 on your 9 point list of ways to play the chord in question.

Then again, if it’s just a biii diminished because that’s a common chord in that context, then you have to ask yourself how to play and suddenly here come eight more ways to do the thing.

So the utility of that harmonic analysis would be ………… ?

Apologies if that’s a stupid question. I did go to a middling music school. Forgive me.

[pamosmusic]

(Not to mention that calling it what it is opens up the reverse possibility of using it in other contexts when the purpose of the chord is “to get to ii.” It doesn’t make a lot of sense as a sub for VI, for example — which is 2 on your list — unless you’re thinking of it in that more utilitarian and less-constrained way.)

[bediles]

[bediles]

Lol. “I’m not trying to pull rank but my music school was better than yours.”

Noted. And probably true.

I literally meant that. No insinuation intended.

[pamosmusic]

Hmm.

“it should still be labeled as a biii diminished chord.”

Soooo ……. Okay?

[pamosmusic]

I literally meant that. No insinuation intended.

Got it.

[bediles]

(Not to mention that calling it what it is opens up the reverse possibility of using it in other contexts when the purpose of the chord is “to get to ii.” It doesn’t make a lot of sense as a sub for VI, for example — which is 2 on your list — unless you’re thinking of it in that more utilitarian and less-constrained way.)

Haven't thought about that list in a bit but I think I checked out some recordings and also dis some theorizing etc. All can say off the top of my head is thinking of dimchords as both dim7 and a 7b9 chords allows me personally to grasp language and keep the flow.

[bediles]

Hmm.

“it should still be labeled as a biii diminished chord.”

Soooo ……. Okay?

Hehe yeah, went back to the dusty textbook for that. Good for the student that wants a secondary explanation.
1. biii dim is a thing
2.biii dim is kinda a V of V
3. we call it a chrom dim (some people have other names for it that are valid).

[pamosmusic]

Haven't thought about that list in a bit but I think I checked out some recordings and also dis some theorizing etc. All can say off the top of my head is thinking of dimchords as both dim7 and a 7b9 chords allows me personally to grasp language and keep the flow.

Cool. That seems about right.

So it sounds like your theory book says it should still be labeled as biii diminished because that bass motion is characteristic of its appearance in this context. And from your own description of the way you’d play that chord “it’s a V/V” is a pretty dramatic oversimplification of what you’re able to do with it.

Again. Please forgive me if I’m not following.

[pamosmusic]

Hehe yeah, went back to the dusty textbook for that. Good for the student that wants a secondary explanation.
1. biii dim is a thing
2.biii dim is kinda a V of V
3. we call it a chrom dim (some people have other names for it that are valid).

Oh okay cool.

Super weird the way things like “Functionally it's a V of V” tend to turn into something nuanced like this when you poke it with a stick.

[A. Kingstone]

Barry said "Flat three diminished goes to the Two and to the Three".

Good enough for me.

[pamosmusic]

Barry said "Flat three diminished goes to the Two and to the Three".

Good enough for me.

Yes but did Barry go to a better or worse music school than us?

[bediles]

Yes but did Barry go to a better or worse music school than us?

LOL!

But exactly, for that inside Vb9 sub both chrom and sec dom dim would be VII7. For the chom its V of iii but you're resolving to ii. OK I think I've said enough..... there's some gold in my lists a few posts back, trust me.

[rpjazzguitar]

I didn't read every post.

One thing I didn't see mentioned was the melody. It's (edited) E F# G, twice at the beginning.

Thinking as a guitarist but not much of a theorist:

You can start with 7x575x and wiggle the pinkie to get the F# and G. (G6 to Gmaj7 to G triad with a doubled root).

Then, the two notes at the 7th fret each drop a half step. The pinkie wiggling is the same. Notes are then Bb G Db E. Seems like Bbdim7 captures it pretty well.

But, the pinkie wiggling (i.e. the melody) creates Bb G Db F# and Bb G Db G. The first one reminds me of an A13b9/Bb, but that name doesn't add much. The second one is a Bbdim triad.

So, I'm perfectly happy calling it Bbdim7 and adding to my list of jazz-facts that it's an effective passing chord and that dim7 is it's own thing. For soloing, the notes of Bbdim7 sound good to me.

And, then those notes drop another half step to Am7.

Very smooth voice leading and works perfectly under that melody.

So, dim7 passing chord in particular situations (as others have pointed out).

[pamosmusic]

I didn't read every post.

One thing I didn't see mentioned was the melody. It's D F# G twice at the beginning.

Thinking as a guitarist but not much of a theorist:

You can start with 7x575x and wiggle the pinkie to get the F# and G. (G6 to Gmaj7 to G triad with a doubled root).

Then, the two notes at the 7th fret each drop a half step. The pinkie wiggling is the same. Notes are then Bb G Db E. Seems like Bbdim7 captures it pretty well.

But, the pinkie wiggling (i.e. the melody) creates Bb G Db F# and Bb G Db G. The first one reminds me of an A13b9/Bb, but that name doesn't add much. The second one is a Bbdim triad.

So, I'm perfectly happy calling it Bbdim7 and adding to my list of jazz-facts that it's an effective passing chord and that dim7 is it's own thing. For soloing, the notes of Bbdim7 sound good to me.

And, then those notes drop another half step to Am7.

Very smooth voice leading and works perfectly under that melody.

So, dim7 passing chord in particular situations (as others have pointed out).

Melody is E F# G.

[rpjazzguitar]

Melody is E F# G.

Thanks. I'll fix that. The analysis (G6) was based on the correct melody, but I had a typo there.

[Bop Head]

Barry said "Flat three diminished goes to the Two and to the Three".

Good enough for me.

Barry also said: "What happens if you raise (or lower) two consecutive notes of a diminished chord? What do you get?"

Those transformations of diminished chords by raising or lowering one or two notes are very seldom talked about. (IIRC Howard Rees talks about that in his Keyboard magazine article from the late 90ies.)

[A. Kingstone]

Top of Page 12 - The Barry Harris Harmonic Method For Guitar.




Etc....

[pamosmusic]

Top of Page 12 - The Barry Harris Harmonic Method For Guitar.




Etc....

Yes but how do we know we can trust it?

[A. Kingstone]

Yes but how do we know we can trust it?

Heheheheheheheheee....

Enter at your own peril.....

shop

[Mick-7]

Yes but how do we know we can trust it?

The 4 note chords can usually be trusted - not always though, I've seen them binge out on symmetry and go berserk.