Embraceable You - second chord in progression

[Christian Miller]

There are a great many questions in old school jazz harmony to which the answer is diminished chord.


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[Christian Miller]

I don't. I meant the swing turnaround has a nice bass line.

Tbh a thing having a nice bassline against the melody is 9/10s of the law

The inner voices often write themselves.

Then you have to write out chord symbols…

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[joe2758]

I have to disagree with ragman, as I understand him, about how diminished chords are different than dominant. For example in practice I would play A7 lines over Bbdim.

Bb-C#-E-G dim arp if i'm correct

The diminished scale includes a note a half step below each tone in the dim arp.

A(half step below Bb)-B-C# (in the dim chord)-D-E(in the dim chord)-F#(half step below G)-G(in the dim chord)

so 5 out of 7 notes are in the dim scale. Looking Bbdim function here, it is pulling to a ii chord. The basic chord to pull to the ii is E7, so the B and D in the A7 are like the 5th and 7th of E7 respectively.

I don't like to play dim arps and don't have any dim scale vocabulary- but I do have dominant phrases to play and that's why this explanation is useful to me in practice.

In conclusion I wonder if anyone read this.

p.s. I see rags said if we boppers play dom over dim good for us; I was just explaining the why

p.p.s. I'm talking about lines

p.p.p.s You can get the same bass line using the other related dominant chords, namely C7, Eb7, Gb7

[ragman1]

I have to disagree with ragman, as I understand him, about how diminished chords are different than dominant.

But they're two different chords. They have their own separate sections in any musical dictionary.

Dominant: The fifth tone of the scale.
Dominant seventh chord: The dominant triad plus a minor seventh. The dominant seventh resolves very satisfyingly to the tonic.

Diminished chords: Chords having as their highest and lowest notes a diminished interval.
Diminished seventh chord: A chord which contains a root, a minor third, a diminished fifth, and a diminished seventh.

FreeMusicDictionary.com - Over 6,000 Music Terms and Definitions

[rpjazzguitar]

My knowledge of part writing and voice leading is next to nil but if we look at some drop 2 inversions of Bb6 | Db dim | Cm7 we get

D G Bb F
C# G Bb E
C G Bb Eb

So we have two notes shared and parallel descending voices in the bass and melody. Of coure you probably want to start with something with a Bb in the bass.

So, I don't know if there is any theoretical basis for this but it looks like a simple way to move from the I6 to the ii7 before going to the V7.

This is very well thought out and presented. Thanks.

There is a way to think about soloing using the same ideas. Maybe it's obvious.

You start with Bb6, so you play Bb Ionian. Think of Bb as the tonal center for the three chords in this sequence, Bb6 Bbdim7 Cm7.

Then, for the next chord, you flat the D and flat the F. The resulting scale is 7 notes out of a diminished scale. But, all you have to think about is the two notes that changed. So, for a simple line that will work, play anything you like over Bb and then play the same thing, or similar, again, but flatting those two notes.

Then, for the third chord, the two notes are flatted again. If you're thinking this simply, the Db drops to C, but there was already a C in the scale (because you're still thinking "Bb Ionian with modifications"). Same for the E, now going to Eb.

What's left? Five notes. Cm7 and an A note. You could call it Cm13. And, C dorian will work -- which is the same Bb scale you started with.

The result is you think Bb major, Bb major with two dropped notes, and then Bb major again. For vocabulary, it's all your Bb major stuff while being aware of the two notes that change for the second chord.

And, you don't have to think about diminished or 7b9. If you do choose to think diminished you get one additional note on the second chord. It's an F#. You already have all the notes in an A7b9 arpeggio.

This is the same thing as you can do, say, for the first two chords in All of Me. C and E7. You could think C Ionian to A harmonic minor. Or, you could get to the same notes by thinking "C tonal center and raise the G to G# for the E7". All it requires is that you know the notes in the chords and the tonal center. There are other ways to do it, but this one works too.

[Christian Miller]

Barry Harris used to teach that BTW. Nice one Charlie.

[Christian Miller]

I did do a video, inevitably

[joe2758]

But they're two different chords. They have their own separate sections in any musical dictionary.

Dominant: The fifth tone of the scale.
Dominant seventh chord: The dominant triad plus a minor seventh. The dominant seventh resolves very satisfyingly to the tonic.

Diminished chords: Chords having as their highest and lowest notes a diminished interval.
Diminished seventh chord: A chord which contains a root, a minor third, a diminished fifth, and a diminished seventh.

FreeMusicDictionary.com - Over 6,000 Music Terms and Definitions

I was talking about function, sorry. not sure when i'll learn no one wants to hear my 2 cents from the peanut gallery

[ragman1]

I was talking about function

Yes, I know, but the function's obvious too. The dominant wants to resolve, at least eventually (because they can go round the cycle), to its tonic but the diminished is really an unresolved chord that's used as a very good bridge between other chords. All the major, minor, harmonic or melodic scales form dom7 chords but the harmonic forms a diminished as the 7th degree leading chord to the tonic.

I wonder why this subject keeps coming back and raises such debate? Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with wanting to avoid playing over diminished chords. For some reason they irk people, especially boppers who want to sub them with V's and ii-V's. I have a feeling that the best way is either to learn how to solo over them properly or find a completely different substitute.

In conclusion I wonder if anyone read this.

Don't worry, I did.

As regards yourself, it seems you've gone for the 'use a dominant' approach. Well, if it works it works, I suppose, but I'll have to criticise Christian's video now. He too says treat dims as doms and play the relevant mixo scale. And we have Mr. Harris supporting this idea so it must be good.

I don't do Barry Harris so I'm okay. Anyway, you'll notice that the video (sorry about this) only got so far with the mixo idea before he started to change the root note. So, instead of playing the straight mixo over various dims, he began sharpening the root. Which, of course, is no longer a dominant scale and the dominant idea has been dropped. Mind you, it's not a proper diminished scale either.

So, again, if it works, it works. I have seen diminished scales written as the diminished arp with a half-step note below each one. So an Ao arp would be

A C Eb F#

and the scale would be

Ab A B C D Eb F F#

which is an 8-note H-W scale. So apparently it's quite easy to construct a dim scale. Just go under each note of the relevant dim chord arpeggio. Et voila.

But you said you didn't like dim arps so you use the dom idea. Well, if it works, it works.

The other way is to use the relevant harmonic minor scale over them. Jens Larsen favours this approach. So, over Abo use A harmonic minor. That works too in its own way.

Can I talk about myself a bit?

I realised long, long ago (long before I'd heard of Barry Harris or anything like that) that if I had CM7/C#o to play all I had to do was just turn the CM7 into C7 and avoid the root.

Or learn the simple dim arpeggios. No one can argue with the sound of that. Then I realised that you could use the melodic minor over them too. It's not perfect but at least it works and it's interesting.

Oh, the other way is to simply ignore them. It quite often works but not in a tune where a dim chord occupies a whole bar (as in Bossa tunes), or even two bars.

So it looks like everyone finds their own way of playing diminished chords. And that's my dramatic conclusion: there's no one way. So long as it sounds okay, of course.

In conclusion I wonder if anyone read this.

I'm cynical. I doubt if anyone did for a moment :-)

[pamosmusic]

As regards yourself, it seems you've gone for the 'use a dominant' approach. Well, if it works it works, I suppose, but I'll have to criticise Christian's video now. He too says treat dims as doms and play the relevant mixo scale. And we have Mr. Harris supporting this idea so it must be good.

Oh goodness. You should probably think through this stuff a bit more when you plan on commenting like an authority. For reference:

I don't do Barry Harris so I'm okay. Anyway, you'll notice that the video (sorry about this) only got so far with the mixo idea before he started to change the root note. So, instead of playing the straight mixo over various dims, he began sharpening the root. Which, of course, is no longer a dominant scale and the dominant idea has been dropped. Mind you, it's not a proper diminished scale either.

C#o7

D harmonic minor:

C# D E F G A Bb C#

C mixolydian with a raised root:

C# D E F G A Bb C#

So Christian is offering (1) a sound that works (the C7 Scale over C#o7) and that a player will have immediate access to and (2) a sound that is extremely authentic based on a slight alteration of that sound rather than a totally new set of scales and modes.

The other way is to use the relevant harmonic minor scale over them. Jens Larsen favours this approach. So, over Bbo use A harmonic minor. That works too in its own way.

You are wrong. For A diminished, you should use Bb harmonic minor.

So, again, if it works, it works. I have seen diminished scales written as the diminished arp with a half-step note below each one. So an Ao arp would be

A C Eb F#

and the scale would be

Bb A B C D Eb F F# Ab

which is a 9-note H-W scale. So apparently it's quite easy to construct a dim scale. Just go under each note of the relevant dim chord arpeggio. Et voila.

Again some confusion over Bb, but that's not the note a half-step below A. Ab or G# is ... which would make this a standard 8 note diminished scale.

Can I talk about myself a bit?

...... I guess? Though you’ve already said quite a bit.

But by all means, continue criticizing Christians video.

[ragman1]

Peter -

Quite right, it's easy to make mistakes with this stuff. I've corrected it.

A harmonic over Abo and Ab A B C D Eb F F# (8-note H-W scale).

I don't disagree that Christian has offered an easily accessible way to solo dim chords. But I think C7 by itself is bland and sharpening the root isn't a real dim scale. I think that was right. But I'm not saying it's invalid. I'm actually much more interested in why the whole thing's such a headache anyway.

So how do you handle dim chords? Have you said that yet?

[ragman1]

Incidentally, I tested out what I was saying. I didn't make mistakes playing it, only writing it down. Writers need editors!

The first bars of Corcovado because it's got the Abo in it:

Am6 - Abo - Gm7/F#7b5 - F69/F#7b5

In order:

1. Simple Abo arpeggio
2. G7 (C maj, no root)
3. A harm minor
4. A dim scale
5. Ab melodic minor

[pamosmusic]

Peter -

Quite right, it's easy to make mistakes with this stuff. I've corrected it.

A harmonic over Abo and Ab A B C D Eb F F# (8-note H-W scale).

I don't disagree that Christian has offered an easily accessible way to solo dim chords. But I think C7 by itself is bland and sharpening the root isn't a real dim scale. I think that was right. But I'm not saying it's invalid. I'm actually much more interested in why the whole thing's such a headache anyway.

So how do you handle dim chords? Have you said that yet?

Man, I think you're arguing about a discussion you don't have a handle on.

A harmonic over Abo and Ab A B C D Eb F F# (8-note H-W scale).

Not correct. A harmonic minor over G#o7 is not an 8-note half-whole scale. Your F# is out of place there.

G# A B C D E F

But I think C7 by itself is bland and sharpening the root isn't a real dim scale. I think that was right.

Correct, but Christian never said it was a diminished scale. It is a simple way of accessing harmonic minor scale. Like I put in my correction of you before. Lets do this with G mixolydian ...

G A B C D E F

becomes

G# A B C D E F

which (as per the above) is A harmonic minor.

So how do you handle dim chords? Have you said that yet?

Depends on the context.

C6 C#o Dm7 G7 .... I either use D harmonic minor or a C diminished arpeggio if I play it at all. I probably ignore it more often than not.

Say ... C6 to Co7, like in––If I Loved You, I Remember You, Corcovado––I like playing B triad with a b2, which is a synonym for Cdim(maj7). Diminished scale sometimes? Diminished 7 from the nat 7 or maj 2 can be cool too? Lots of stuff.

[ragman1]

Right, never mind the writing it down. There's a clip there. No.4 over Abo is B C D Eb F G Ab. I played that.

What's that? As far as I know it's an A dim scale starting on the B.

[pamosmusic]

Right, never mind the writing it down. There's a clip there. No.4 over Abo is B C D Eb F G Ab.

What's that? As far as I know it's an A dim scale starting on the B.

Goodness gracious.

No indeed.

You have two consecutive whole steps between Eb-F and F-G. So it’s not a symmetrical diminished scale.

For what it’s worth, I believe it’s a C harmonic minor scale. Interesting because it has the B dim7 in it, which is a synonym for Abdim … so you have the Abdim and an Abmaj7(#9) which is interesting.

anyway … a little odd that you’ve spending several dozen posts lecturing other folks on the topic.

But we all do as we feel we must. Do carry on. Bestow upon me yet more knowledge gracious ragman.

[ragman1]

All I know is it sounded okay on the chord :-)

[garybaldy]

My simple approach if you'll bear with me.
I've picked S'wonderful as an example in Eb major.

First and 2nd 8 start:
Eb % Edim7 % So I think C7b9 for the Edim7 and that takes you nicely to the Fm7. I also play either the diminished arpeggio or try to find a nice phrase that fits.

The last 8 starts:
Eb % Ebdim7 % Here I think F7b9 for the Ebdim7 and I basically do the same as above for the F7b9. It leads nicely to the Fm7 as can be heard in many standards.

I'm not well up on the dim scales and others but I try my best with what I know making many mistakes in the process even though I have it in my head.

[pamosmusic]

All I know is it sounded okay on the chord :-)

Not my flavor but alright. Thats because that Abo7 is in there by way of the Bo7.

It’s almost like you would benefit from listening to other people or watching Christian’s video another time or something.

Remarkable, I know.

[ragman1]

It's the G I got wrong, should be F#:

A B C D Eb F F# G#/Ab

That's an A dim scale. I believe so, anyway. I can see why folks don't care for dim scales. As I said before, never liked them myself.

[pamosmusic]

It's the G I got wrong, should be F#:

A B C D Eb F F# G#/Ab

That's an A dim scale. I believe so, anyway. I can see why folks don't care for dim scales. As I said before, never liked them myself.

Just have to have some vocabulary with them. That would help. Put in the time.

I don’t use them all that much, unless I have a longer stretch on a diminished chord, because I haven’t put much time in with them.

Put in some time with them.

[ragman1]

No point, I don't use them.

[charlieparker]

Incidentally, I tested out what I was saying. I didn't make mistakes playing it, only writing it down. Writers need editors!

The first bars of Corcovado because it's got the Abo in it:

Am6 - Abo - Gm7/F#7b5 - F69/F#7b5

In order:

1. Simple Abo arpeggio
2. G7 (C maj, no root)
3. A harm minor
4. A dim scale
5. Ab melodic minor

I liked 4 the best.

[Mick-7]

C#o7

D harmonic minor:
C# D E F G A Bb C#

C mixolydian with a raised root:
C# D E F G A Bb C#

So Christian is offering (1) a sound that works (the C7 Scale over C#o7) and that a player will have immediate access to and (2) a sound that is extremely authentic based on a slight alteration of that sound rather than a totally new set of scales and modes.

That approach seems unnatural to me, i.e., referencing a scale that does not include the chord tones (root of the chord in this case) of the chord with which you're associating it. Of course you could add the root (C) to the D harmonic minor scale, which is what I'd do if I used it - make it an 8 note scale.

But if I was thinking in scale terms, I'd be more likely to use the relevant dim. scale or harmonic major with 7b9/dim. chords, e.g., Dbo and Ab Harmonic Major (major scale with b6th) over C7/Dbo, because those scales contain the chord tones of both chords.

[pamosmusic]

That approach seems unnatural to me

ah well. can't have that.

[ragman1]

I liked 4 the best.

Caramba :-)

Which one the least?