rubato...what is it really ???

**Jazzy_Dan** · 03-31-2017, 08:29 PM

I know there have been several discussions on this topic on the internet but I've failed to come to a conclusion on it.

Some say rubato is a speeding up and slowing down of the tempo. Some say rubato is "free expression" where it appears one seems to momentarily stop playing, and restarting in combination with a speeding and slowing of the tempo. One guy in a youtube video did a blues solo "over" a drum beat as opposed to playing WITH the beat, and he called it "rubato".

It seems to me that traditionally, rubato had a precise definition...ie A speeding and slowing of the tempo. Or, "stealing" time and "giving" it back, but has gradually been giving a broader definition or more liberal definition; One argument I've read supporting the more liberal definition is that the audience is not keep track of what time is "stolen" so "giving" it back is not a necessity.

So let's just say the definition of rubato is none other than the traditional way as described. Is it "wrong" or ear piercing to anyone to play in a more liberal concept of time, or to play with complete rhythmic freedom?... Now I'm not saying that hitting random notes at random time intervals would be good music...obviously some structure is needed to keep an audience interested.

My first exposure of "rubato" was when I watched these two jazz musicians give a demo. Within the first ten minutes of the video she gives a definition of "rubato" and then they give a demonstration. The definition of rubato as spoken by her mouth, is to play "freely, or without time": I've taken their concept and applied it to some guitar instrumentals that I've written and people liked what I played.

**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 08:44 PM

Rubato is borrowed time. If you borrow time by stretching it, it has to be paid back. Her description of it is incorrect. Free time is something entirely different.

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**emanresu** · 03-31-2017, 08:47 PM

Rubato - you do whatever you want. It's that easy.

**emanresu** · 03-31-2017, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by stringsalive

Rubato is borrowed time. If you borrow time by stretching it, it has to be paid back. Her description of it is incorrect.

Nope.

**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 08:48 PM

This is from the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians:

"The expressive alteration of rhythm or tempo. In an earlier type the melody is altered while the accompaniment maintains strict time. A later type involves rhythmic flexibility of the entire musical substance. Both originated as a part of unnotated performing practice, but were later sometimes indicated in scores. Some modern writers refer to the earlier and later types as melodic and structural, borrowed and stolen, contrametric and agogic, or bound and free."

It goes on to provide definitions for period performance (different interpretations of the term dating as far back as 1723.

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**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 08:56 PM

Now, if you are using free time, make sure you are doing it for musical reasons, not for a lack of understanding, or to make up for a technical limitation.

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**Jazzy_Dan** · 03-31-2017, 09:15 PM

Ok, so there is a liberal concept of tempo and rhythm called "free time"? That makes sense.

**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 09:21 PM

If you are interested in exploring Rubato as it relates to jazz performance, check out Richard Ashley's (Northwestern University) article "Don't change a hair for me: the art of jazz rubato," and the Huangs' "Billie Holiday and Tempo rubato: Understanding Expressivity."

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**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 09:40 PM

Free time is closer to what this video describes. Free time does not have a discernible pulse, or at least lacks a steady or consistent pulse (both definitions are used). It's generally used for a very specific, sort of ethereal effect. It is something we typically find uncomfortable. When juxtaposed against a regular meter, it can be quite effective. It's almost like the floor has given out below you, but perhaps returns to stable footing later.

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**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 10:03 PM

Here, I'll provide some subjective input:

Jazz (like lots of other music) has its roots in dance music. Therefore, pulse is incredibly important. I think free time works as an effect, but only in combination with strict time.

As for "liberal," well... remember, our oldest notated western music (yes, there were other notation systems, and even the Sumerians and Babylonians had their own systems, though we don't fully understand them today) had no indication of time. Chants were not written, and likely not performed, with any clear meter. The concept of meter didn't enter notation until Franco de Cologne ca.1270 (and rhythmic modes were used for nearly 100 years before that). That does not mean meter and rhythm were not present - indeed, most secular music almost certainly would have been performed with a definable pulse. It simply means that our modern concept of time and meter (expressed in mensural notation) are relatively young.

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**emanresu** · 03-31-2017, 10:04 PM

Just listen the intro of Bean's blues. The phrases have time, but its broken. Nothing is borrowed. The listener is not asked to dance.

**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Just listen the intro of Bean's blues. The phrases have time, but its broken. Nothing is borrowed. The listener is not asked to dance.

Coleman Hawkins Swingville recording?

There's a pretty clear sense of pulse. And it's a consistent duple. You can set your metronome to it. It's got an almost double time feel when compared to the head, but nothing there is broken. It's right around 82-83 bpm (on 2/4) right up until the band comes in.

And no, most jazz since bebop has not been intended as dance band music. It's roots and foundation are based in dance music. This is where I said "I think" (my personal opinion on the matter) it's important to remember that whether you're playing swing, bop, or avant-garde.

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**emanresu** · 03-31-2017, 10:19 PM

Yep that one. The time is not constant try as you might.

**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 10:35 PM

I seriously have to ask if you're trolling at this point.

If not, it's a really bad example. There are plenty of recordings with intros that are not in time, and they only serve to complement my point that it works when set against something with a clear pulse. Hell, on gigs, I play intros with free time, and some that are rubato, and some that even use stop-time. So do my students.

Now the OP's question is about defining rubato. Rubato is not free time. It is not a stop-time. "Try as you might," the term rubato does have a definition. It even has a translation ("robbed. Stolen time"). It is not, "you do whatever you want."

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**emanresu** · 03-31-2017, 10:39 PM

Bah. Go look Capricho Arabe to see how rubato can one rubato be.
I'm not trolling. That case with Bean's the time was broken and it was pretty. Put a metronome track on it and prove me wrong and I'll sit corrected.

**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 10:50 PM

Deleted by me - off topic, and not helpful to the OP

**Jazzy_Dan** · 03-31-2017, 11:11 PM

What is "stop time"?

**stringsalive** · 03-31-2017, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzy_Dan

What is "stop time"?

It's a deliberate rest (for the entire group) in which the duration is not in time. Think of it like a fermata over a rest. In performance, it's usually more than a beat; I usually count it, and start at a strange spot (maybe the 4th 16th note of the fifth beat). But, when I use it, it's for effect, and it's pretty jarring. Some guys may use it and just stop for a 4 count, and come back in after a measure of silence. Some won't count it at all. It's just silence where it's not expected.

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**pkirk** · 03-31-2017, 11:45 PM

Speaking of rubato, I caught Hal Galper's trio a couple years ago when he did a "rubato" CD. He talks a little about his concept of rubato on this vid

**Jazzy_Dan** · 04-01-2017, 12:32 AM

Thanks everyone I think I have a better understanding now

**Tomcat** · 04-01-2017, 04:38 AM

I like it classical way

**Tomcat** · 04-01-2017, 04:42 AM

and here very clear explanation of one kind of "rubating": just slight delay of beat 3 in 3/4

**Noah D'Innocenzo** · 04-01-2017, 10:30 AM

Rubato does not have to speed up or slow down in any specific amount of time or in perfect balance with each other. You could speed up for 4 measures and then only slow down for two before either accelerating again or maintaining what you've slowed down to.

A lot of chord melodies are done rubato and if you're looking for some examples, check out Joe Pass stuff anywhere. Not always, but a lot of his 1st choruses are rubato. Whenever he begins to walk a bass line of any sort (2 beat or 4 beat) a real time has been established.

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**matt.guitarteacher** · 04-01-2017, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

Speaking of rubato, I caught Hal Galper's trio a couple years ago when he did a "rubato" CD. He talks a little about his concept of rubato on this vid

What he's talking about at 4:25 or so about not having a "background" beat in the rhythm section is what I think of hearing in a lot of jazz rubato. Somewhat abstracting strong sense of the beat is my feeling about it. He talks about that "it's still there"...