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Hi.
How do you transpose a well-known busy tune (comp) on the fly, what goes on in your mind? Do you need to keep it simple or have you found a good method that helps to do it safe and quick enough to have fun with it?
About the key changes, there is already 3 ways to think about "shifting to another" - scale degrees, half-steps, intervals.. or maybe even something else, something clever..er?
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12-31-2017 07:26 PM
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I and V, in whatever keys we go to.
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You mean somebody calls Stella in F# and you've got to comp?? Is that what you're asking?
For me, always know the tune by roman numerals, the key centres by that orientation and then the bridge or where ever something tricky comes up, target the key centres that are targets (bridge goes to a major on the third degree... II V runs from the #IV, etc).
That's where there's a choice when you're learning a piece, by note names (absolute orientation) and by key centres and intervallic (roman numeral) degrees. The two are not mutually exclusive of course, but the latter is REALLY helpful when talking instant transposition.
If I understand your question right...
David
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Yep, exactly.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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+1 to David. I also always think in Roman numerals, which also implies an analysis, or at least some type of Functional implications. So you can actually play the tune and not just the the basic chords.
The act of thinking this way or memorizing with this approach... forces one to basically have some type of analysis of whatever your playing.
So you actually understand the tunes as compared to just memorizing notes and chords in some type of order. Which leads to eventually recognizing chord patterns and cycles with Targets within different spatial Forms.
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Practice learning some tunes in many keys, play the melody with simple, guide tone voicings, trying to hear the relationship of the melody notes with the chords. Most tunes carry themselves after a while, and the tricky part is unusual progressions, or big interval jumps of root motion. I try to learn tunes by harmonic motion, the goal being to be able to put chords on any standard type tune if i know the melody well enough after a while
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I've done that with a few. The problem is that with each tune, I have the most comfy place to play the comp, then those 2 others that don't get nearly as much abuse as the 1st one. If the new requested key is too far from the well-practiced one - trouble. I have a hunch that there could be something... some way of remembering the key changes so that eventually they all become equal to play. I've not spent enough time to this issue (never really needed it because all the people I've played with have been comfortably lazy) and thought to ask before starting this scary journey.
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Honestly ....
Irealb
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Could you explain a little about what these 3 ways mean? I'm not really getting your orientation. Originally Posted by emanresu
David
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Are you learning to play chords by rote and specific position only? What I'm trying to get at is do you know all your tonics throughout the fretboard by RELATIVE position? If I gave you a note, say an F#, could you find all the F#'s easily just by position? Could you find all your Eb's? Can you see the fingerboard in a way so you could find the same note on the fingerboard 3 strings over? 4 strings over? If you can get to the point where you can do this, and you can play this way, you'll see that the fingerboard has the exact same orientation for any of the keys no matter how obscure the key is. You can comp in C? Well Db is the exact same thing one fret up. Gb is the exact same thing as the key of C, 7 frets up. Yes it's like an imaginary capo, you just shift your orientation. Originally Posted by emanresu
Do you see this? Once you also learn to comp by ear, your fingers will move with your ear with the help of this imaginary vision of the fingerboard. That's moving and playing to the RELATIVE tonic and the shapes that connect them.
Tell me a little about how you see the fingerboard, and maybe I can explain how a little shift in perspective can help you "see" things in a useful way.
David
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Ok, I try, hoping my engrish is adequate enough.
When comping, I don't want to fix on a single chord or inversions of that. I see the pattern (using 3 to cover the whole neck) and pick something nice there. Pattern - as a they are used for learning scales. For example when comping a simple blues with natural D7s, I know what patterns come after each other and just aiming for the >5 interval inside the pattern, the others notes are pretty much free to choose from. So, not focusing on a chord that much, just aiming the function notes and shifting the whole pattern around when the key changes.
Those "3 ways" of thinking about key changes -
1. remembering to which scale degree the key changed. Instantly this goes into 2 ways - 1.minding the original key and see always all modulations relative to the original key 2. not doing that, every change of key becomes the main, for a little while.
2. remembering the jumps by intervals. Basic blues keys would jump around like that: 4th, back, 4th, back again, 5th, 2nd down... etc.
3. Same as intervals but counting the half-steps instead. It's strangely simpler sometimes on guitar.
So, I would like to be able to write the key change sequence down using one of these systems. And be able to remember and play from this also thing also. Just am not sure which way to do this. Maybe just do it all..
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I'm probably overthinking it though
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I see. In your system, I don't get the feeling, maybe wrongly though, that your ear is a big part of how you find the changes. Originally Posted by emanresu
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I'm probably overthinking it though
In your original post, you were looking for a way of transposing easily.
So have you thought that if your tonal centre were just in a different location, shifted to a different location, that the changes would be the same, have the same sounds and be located in the same places as the key you learned, but simply with a new tonic?
Take a blues for example. Blues in F would put your root on the 6th string first fret, but also 5th string 8th, right?
Well isn't that 5th string 8th similar in shape to a C blues with the root on the 5th string 3rd fret? Sounds the same and feels similar but in a different register.
Maybe I'm not getting your dilemma. Tell me more.
David
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I try to write down Stella's key changes now in each of those systems. It'll take a bit of time.
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Figure out what's going on. You've got a II V going to the III (but not getting there). Now try that in the key of G, it's the same Stella you know but down a few frets. Think roman numerals and know what's happening. Originally Posted by emanresu
Stella's a challenge from the start because the harmonic movement is subtle and purposely avoids diatonicism.
David
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A similar way I've heard old cats talk about it and my last teacher touched on it was more in Cycles or Cadences than in strict roman numeral view. They see the chords as this cycle to a cycle some interval way to another cycle. That way they were thinking a pieces of in functional chunks being combined and I think it was more how they heard the tune if they knew it or not. Thinking of groups of chords commonly used together. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Just throwing that out as a way I've heard other talk about playing/hearing tunes... this cycle to that cycle...
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Nashville. I II III etc Originally Posted by emanresu
The trick is to understand where the modulations are.
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Also I agree with Reg - to transpose is to analyse.
Do it with lines as well.
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Learn a tune. Learn it in numerals. Transpose. Watch for patterns. Originally Posted by emanresu
Repeat 200+ times (can take some time)
Learning tunes becomes more like transposition as you recognise modules.
Most tunes I know have a comfy place to comp. When I practice I try and pull myself out of that. Transpose a tune just a tone up or down can really help open it up actually. And plus, more routes through the progression rather than thinking in clunky chord symbols is great too....
I'm talking about standards rep. If you play in groups that expect you to transpose Dolphin Dance on the fly.... then who the hell are you playing with?
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1.just the chord chart in that popular key
2.keys - only in ionian/aeolian.
3.key changes - relative to the home key (Bb in the original here), the number tells what scale degree the new Ionian is located in
4.no home key. Each new key is gets to be the new boss, the numbers say what degree the new Ionian is located in relative to the previous key(always Ionian).
5.intervals tell the (always)upwards shift of the Ionian in the following key.
6.half note steps describe the shifts.
I double-checked but there could be a mistake or two left.
Hm. Just got an idea to keep the intervals tell the Ionian location in the next key but always relative to the home key. But I feel crazy enough now. Time to noodle aimlessly.
edit: saw a mistake in 2. chart. should be Db/bb
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Haha you had to choose a tough one. What's wrong with Mean to Me, or something?
OK, this is how I view Stella. Do with this what you will. I keep it very simple, because I am stupid.
I try to have as few modulations as possible.
And as few chords.
Learn the melody.
I want to limit the number of things I have to remember/transpose.
General notes -
32 bar through composed form.
One modulation - which is to the key of the V. I'll write here as if it's in the main key, but put in bold.
Original keys are Bb and G.
I'll double your harmonic rhythm cos it's what I'm used to :-)
It's easier to think in a modular way - for instance - transpose this cycle of dominants starting on III, or, here is a How high the Moon A section - than thinking chord by chord. You are more likely to play them better that way too.... So learning standards will teach you those modules. I could write out a page of them and it would give you the information but not the knowledge.
When I memorise I put the II and V together. Easier. So, here, I just write the dominant. But I put just the dominant for brevity. 7 for a major ii-V, 7b9 for minor. It's not necessarily what I play.
Also, these are not the only changes to this song. The diminished changes are popular in some circles. The old changes are more logical in some ways. I tend to think of the first 4 as | bIIIo7 | % | IIm7 | V7 | - anyway....
A7b9 | % | F7 | % |
Bb7 | % | Eb | Ebm |
Bb | A7b9 | Dm | Eb7 |
F | A7b9 | D7b9 | % |
G7b9 | % | Cm | % |
Ab7 | % | Bb | % |
A7b9 | % | G7b9 | % |
F7b9 | % | Bb | % |
OK, now lets put this into functions:
VII7b9 | % | V7 | % |
I7 | % | IV | bVII7 |
I | VII7b9 | IIIm | IV7 |
V | VII7b9 | III7b9 | % |
VI7b9 | % | IIm | % |
bVII7 | % | I | % |
VII7b9 | % | VI7b9 | % |
V7b9 | % | I | % |
Modules
Lookout for front door, cycling motion and backdoor (up a whole tone) movement in the dominants. Also dominants descending in whole steps at the end - not super super common, but nor uncommon either - Woody'n'You is a good example. So
Em7b5 A7b9 Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm7b5 F7b9 Bb = Woody'n'You.
Stellas is a slightly tough one to learn in terms of modules. There's lot of tunes that are more modular. And there are tunes that are modular with interesting exceptions.
Stella modules
Backdoor - Ab7 Bb and Eb7 F
Cycle dominants - F7 Bb7 and A7b9 D7b9 --> G7b9
Move to III (bridge to They Can't Take that Away, for instance) - A7b9 Dm
Woody'n'You - A7b9 G7b9 F7b9 Bb
Ask me another one. Something less through composed :-)
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Thanks!
Btw, the idea of dominants only is pretty neat.
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its generally easier for most people to transpose melodies than chords. Then, by being able to play a melody, not only by itself, but with the roots of the corresponding chords as well, you can work on learning to follow it regardless of what key it 's played in. The theory, writing part is useful, but try to concentrate more on actually hearing the changes and the chords rather than learning them intellectually. Kind of like learning a chart by reading it vs hearing it, the second approach is better in the long run.
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Yup. Again, I have yet to find a better way to learn that then learn lots of tunes by ear with charts to help you out when you need. There are exercises you can do, but basically it really is about doing it.
Aural memory seems longer lasting too.
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Jeez, he said LIVE...Y'all writing charts?
"Quick, get me 6 cocktail napkins! Sheila, tell that story about when you met Victor Young and thought he was the guy who wrote Les Miserables!"
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