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Hey folks,
I posted this in improvisation, but maybe this is a better spot for it.
I'm taking a stab at transcribing Milt Jackson's vibes solo on Bag's Groove (take 1). This solo has a lot of classic bebop vocabulary I'd really like to study and get into my playing. There's a little line that happens in the first chorus that I love the sound of, but don't know how to analyze, so it's hard to understand what the concept is so I can use it myself.
It's in bar 6 of a 12 bar blues where the IV is going back to I (the tune is in F, so Bb to F in this case). He plays and eighth note line that goes | C (then down an octave) E F G Ab Bb B D | C F A...
So the end is perfectly clear that he's playing an F major arpeggio as the harmony lands back on the I chord. I'm having trouble hearing what chord or scale the preceding measure is though. All those notes make up an E (G, Bb or Db) half-whole diminished scale. But I'm not sure I understand the theory behind this... wouldn't this be implying an E7, G7, Bb7, or Db7? I would understand a C7 going to the F, or a tritone sub for a Gb going to F, or an Eb7 going to F, but this is kind of throwing me for a loop. Should I look at it as an E7 going to F as a kind of half step thing?
If you want to hear it, it's at about 3:46ish in the recording.
Thanks!
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12-03-2018 08:40 PM
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He's playing the line over a Bº7 chord and using a diminished run. E, F, G, Ab, Bb, B, D are all notes from the B diminished scale. The notes on the downbeat are F, Ab and B. The Bº7 is related to the Bb7(b9) which is another way of approaching bar 6 in a blues. The F, Ab and B make the 5th, b7th and b9th of that chord.
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Do you mean this solo?
To be honest, we always assume these guys are so masterful they really mean every note they play and never get it wrong! Well, if we do assume that, I'd plump for the idea that he was thinking bar 6 is where a blues often sticks in a diminished chord - Bo in this case - and the natural B and D outline that... but who really knows what he was thinking?
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I like Bdim explanation that setemupjoe offered
Also it is the case where I prefere to take it simple...
It's melodic chromatic appogiatura around C... Bnat - D - C on the beat... it is as old as music is probably
I call it 'evasion' - in my opinion one of the most typical technique of construction of jazz melodies in impro: trying constantly to avoid the chord tone ... (and trying not to repeat anything) it may be very complex in relation to beats and mesearues and harmony (as it may imply sub's chord tone for example or an extention), but basically it it - an evasion... something is meant to be there and it is evaded and postponed and that moves the story on a bit...
PS
the whole Bdim chord is appogiatura to C...
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Originally Posted by mjgp3
If I read correctly, in that transcription the line is: E, F, G, Ab, A, B, D Originally Posted by ragman1
Do you mean this solo?
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Thank you all for chiming in. The Bdim explanation makes the most sense and clicked with me as soon as I read it so thanks! And yes, I was working off of that transcription originally too, but it's wrong in a lot of spots, including that run I'm talking about... I'm almost certain that the A should be Bb.
While I have you all here, in bars 10 and 22, he plays almost the exact same line over a C7... it's a Dbmaj7 arpeggio and then a little triplet on D Eb D. Is it right to think of that as an arpeggio off of the b9 of C (b9, 11, 13, 1) and the triplet is is going 9 #9 9, or is there some other substitution happening that might get you this as well? Thanks for the help!
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heh heh :-) Originally Posted by mjgp3
I've no idea where it comes from. It could be borrowed from C Phrygian or Locrian but I don't see that actually helps. I do know that was favourite trick of George Benson's, to put in the M7 a half-step above the dominant (as opposed to Db melodic minor, the C altered scale). The D in the other notes might just be chromatic.in bars 10 and 22, he plays almost the exact same line over a C7...
I think the Db B in bar 22 (going to C) is an enclosure.
Best I can do.
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Alt dom sound... it is right to think anything if it works and us convenient as a tool. Originally Posted by mjgp3
Also Db is dominant to F# and F# is triton sub for C
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Regarding this first line you asked about... now I got my hand on guitar...Thank you all for chiming in. The Bdim explanation makes the most sense and clicked with me as soon as I read it so thanks! And yes, I was working off of that transcription originally too, but it's wrong in a lot of spots, including that run I'm talking about... I'm almost certain that the A should be Bb.
first of all you are absolutely correct it is Bb (not A as in the sheet)...
I like the idea of B diminished..
But I would rather say now actually that it is F diminished... I just hear this Fdim sound here.
For me the charasteristic pitches here are Bnat (b5) nat and Dnat (6) against F minor. You hear what I mean?
(for me in general diminished scale sound is variation of melodic minor)
It could be more of a B halfdim if it were A as it is in the sheet..
Yes Fdim and Bdim is enharmonic but...
The thing is when I play it can strongly hear the harmonic movement behind it and relation to some 'root'.
When I play it I hear stron presence of F as root in this line..
And if I try to refer to B as a root - the Bdim is not really convincing ...
it would make rather a half-diminished.. - a different function and harmonic sound.. probably this is where the 'correction' in the transcribed sheet comes from.. the transcriber was not focused enough and adjusted it to his hearing of harmony intuitively.
I think it is fun to have these two absolutely different routes through changing just one note in a line!
PS
basically it is just minor blues in F.. but it's probably not an explanation.
also it fits Barry Harris Idim idea I believe...Last edited by Jonah; 12-05-2018 at 02:35 AM.
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It's not. I thought it was at first too but I had to think again. It's not the C alt scale, it's a M7 (Db major, not minor). That's borrowed from C phrygian (Ab) or C locrian (Db). Originally Posted by Jonah
Unless anything non-diatonic is called altered...which it obviously is. In any case, I don't think worrying about where it comes from matters - unless one's doing some academic exam or something. The idea is to play it and what to do with it.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
It is... i did not refer to a scale but a sound (as I wrote actually).
I can hear alt dom sound.. it can be produced by different means... usually it is two altered extentions or chord tones... but sometimes even one is enough.
(Above I wrote that in some context I hear diminished chord as and altered sound over minor).
I think it depends much on style - in old styles it was enough to have a general alt sound in later more modern styles it became more specific and it makes difference which altereation is used.
It makes difference as semantic elements of music.. it is a different charachter, colour, accent, meaning...
So here I definitely hear altered dom sound...
and if I get into it and check why.. I see Dbmaj7 arpeggio in realtion to C7 has root-b9-11-b13
I do not like borrowing explanation here that you give just because I cannot hear it in music.. I should hear the tool in ontext - otherwise it is just abstracy... (but sometimes I begin to hear some elements that I did not distinguish before as specific - so I do not deny that for someone it may work)
Another idea that I laltely became more and more strict about: scales are really good tool when the music is scalar... why it took me years to understand it - and seemingly to come back to what I started from just from different perspective I do not know... but when the line has perdominantly scalar structure I think it can be really important to refer to scale, it helps...
And when is built on chord tones predominantly - for me it often makes more sence to refer to chord...
That is I began to deferetiate chords and scales as theorectic tools...
The two examples here are representing both: 1) it is more scalar for me becuase it is not only diminished chord but it is linear diminished scale that makes the movement here
2) reference to scale makes no sense in real context for me.. but harmonic is really referntial here
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Of course it's an altered dominant sound. Any non-diatonic notes over a dominant chord will give an altered sound by definition. But that wasn't the point.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Not any... I do not manipulate definitions, I describe hearing.
And this is the only point that makes sense about music.
Again you do the same thing.. drowning thread into mileading and abstract comments...
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What a great solo from Milt Jackson. Regarding the Dbmaj7 over the C7, I don’t mind the analysis, just stole that one. Thank you
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No, Jonah, the OP asked for an analysis. Normally I wouldn't bother, I don't see the point of it except as an academic exercise, but that's what he asked for. Originally Posted by Jonah
None of it is misleading or abstract, it was an accurate analysis of the notes in front of us. By saying it's 'just an altered dominant sound' is simply stating the obvious and doesn't answer his question.in bars 10 and 22, he plays almost the exact same line over a C7... it's a Dbmaj7 arpeggio and then a little triplet on D Eb D. Is it right to think of that as an arpeggio off of the b9 of C (b9, 11, 13, 1) and the triplet is is going 9 #9 9, or is there some other substitution happening that might get you this as well? Thanks for the help!
Anyway, whatever you say :-)
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Like I said before, that was one of George Benson's moves, to put in the M7 a half above the dominant. Can't remember when I saw it though. Originally Posted by tamirgal
What a great solo from Milt Jackson. Regarding the Dbmaj7 over the C7, I don’t mind the analysis, just stole that one. Thank you
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That’s a nice move. Seem that Milt had the trick long before Benson (probably others too). It’s not that of a big difference in sound between the melodic minor at the same position, but it does sound refreshing. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Well, everyone steals everything. Milt probably borrowed it from somewhere too. But somebody somewhere in the mists of time thought of it first...
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incidentally, not too long ago I was scratching my head over this Barry Harris line:
I think Barry would have called this a tritone line. But this F natural doesn't really fit the tritone of C7.
But now I see this fit nicely on that Benson-Jackson trick!
This line illustrate Dbmaj more than anything else, isn't it?
Cheers,
T.
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Could be, could be...
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It can be secondary dominant to C7.. which is G7 and Db is triton to that.. I am not sure how he would explaine but as much as I lnow of his appraoch he would not use Dbmaj7 arp half-step above explanation...think Barry would have called this a tritone line. But this F natural doesn't really fit the tritone of C7.
But now I see this fit nicely on that Benson-Jackson trick!
This line illustrate Dbmaj more than anything else, isn't it?
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If I need to guess, I think Barry would say that the F natural note belong to C7 and the rest of the notes belong to Gb7. So that’s like running C7 into its tritone. Originally Posted by Jonah
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If I remember correctly C7, Eb7,Gb7,A7 are relative dominant chords through common diminished chord in his system ('brithers and sisters' he calls it?) Originally Posted by tamirgal
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Right
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