-
I noticed that Grant has a pattern he follows throughout the tune, where he plays a pentatonic/blues over the first 4(ish) bars, and then switches when the song changes to the 2nd 4 bars. This is the part I highlighted in yellow. This seems like a Bb Spanish Phrygian, but it's also an Eb Harmonic Minor (my limited theory tells me this is simply a relative of the Harm Minor scale). He plays this scale every time I believe when the song switches to Eb7 for the two bars, often starting it in the last bar of Bb however.
I was wondering what people think. Was Grant thinking the Eb here or the Bb? It seems he often starts these phrases on the Bb so I would think he's thinking the Spanish Phrygian.
What makes me question the Phrygian is he then *always* switches to a Bb Harmonic Minor after the first two bars of Eb (highlighted in this section in blue). He does this constantly throughout the song.
Anyone smarter than I wanna take a crack at explaining what's going on here? I know it's impossible to actually get into what Grant's thinking here, but from examining what he plays, I'm curious what other's think.
-
03-17-2019 05:32 PM
-
What's the tune, I'd like to hear the whole thing in context, including the melody.
-
It's Tracin' Tracey from his Sunday Morning album. What I find interesting about this song is it's simply a Bb blues, but he really makes it sound hip. It seems very similar to Midnight Blue I think.
-
Ah...listen carefully. Tracy's a minor blues.
-
The yellow one is Eb harmonic minor. Nothing more. Try playing it over the Eb minor shape at the 6th fret. The thing is that he's playing it over Bb7 and Eb7 so it sounds like a Bb7b9 run and Ebm blues respectively.
The blue one is Bb harmonic minor over the Bbm shape at the 6th too. Over the Bb7 that sounds like Bbm blues and over the Eb7 it's just the ii of that.
No big deal. Don't over-analyse, these guys are human. Technically I suppose the Bbm should have been melodic (with a G not a Gb) but I expect he was trying something out, or trying to emulate the feel of the Ebm. Or that's just the way it came out at the time (he plays a wrong note later in the recording too, you can hear it).
It doesn't matter what it's called, it's how it sounds. Seriously.Last edited by ragman1; 03-18-2019 at 04:22 AM.
-
Yellow bit starts 1.05.
-
Thanks. It's nice to think that I'm at least getting a little into what and why these guys play something, other than just learning what they are playing.
Originally Posted by ragman1
btw - do you mean Eb Harm Minor? Those notes (and the others he plays in other parts) match perfectly to Eb, but not to E.
It's not so much about over analyzing as it is learning how these guys mix up playing a blues by using something other than pentatonics. But I will counter that it's easy to say "it's how it sounds", but you have to learn what it is to understand how it sounds. Analyzing this solo has really opened up some ideas to me on how guys approach chords, and if you look at the song, it's easy to see how Grant does it in this case. Each chorus, his approach is almost exactly the same.
But he does play a lot of wrong notes here...it does sound like he's struggling with parts of it. If I remember, the song was originally left off the album and was added later with CD and digital releases. I can see how he might not have been pleased with it, but I think despite the mistakes, there's some great lines to learn and digest.
-
You're missing that it's a minor blues!
-
Then please explain. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
He plays that pattern alot. Patterns as in not necessarily those notes of the scale but identical guitar centric pull on pull off thing.
I would suggest in terms of thinking he is thinking what am I gonna play next, what am I feeling here, whilst he fills in the blank with one of his go to licks.
-
Well, the chords are Bbm and Ebm, not Bb7 and Eb7.
The line in question is played on the classic minor blues i--iv transition, which makes the i a I7 (so that might be the Bb7 you heard), transitioning to the iv almost as a new "i."
In other words, its THE cadence in jazz for harmonic minor. You hear it everywhere on a minor blues...which is actually a very cool and challenging form.
There's not really any wrong notes, though, if you consider the chords this way...
-
Alright, that's interesting, I didn't consider it was using m7 instead of dominants. I'll have to update that. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Understand, to me this is something completely new. I've never really considered harmonic minor before, so finding this on a "blues" is eye opening to me. Now that I understand that a little more I hopefully can use that learn a little more, so thank you.
I still think he's got some bad lines in the solo tho. Like I said, he sounds a little lost at times. But the lines when he's trading with the drummer are some really hip stuff.
-
Yes I hear that lost kinda vibe on a few other recordings with Baby Face Willet, Ike Quebec and Sonny Red. Then he pulls out some ripping lines and it is all systems go.
-
I certainly did! Don't know how that slipped through... must be like guitar playing :-) I've edited that, thanks. Originally Posted by Bahnzo
I had the impression it was all a bit nervous too. Maybe he'd just got this harmonic minor thing in his head and wanted to see if it worked.It's not so much about over analyzing as it is learning how these guys mix up playing a blues by using something other than pentatonics. But I will counter that it's easy to say "it's how it sounds", but you have to learn what it is to understand how it sounds. Analyzing this solo has really opened up some ideas to me on how guys approach chords, and if you look at the song, it's easy to see how Grant does it in this case. Each chorus, his approach is almost exactly the same. But he does play a lot of wrong notes here...it does sound like he's struggling with parts of it.
Ah, you know more than me. I guess there's something to be learned from everything.If I remember, the song was originally left off the album and was added later with CD and digital releases. I can see how he might not have been pleased with it, but I think despite the mistakes, there's some great lines to learn and digest.
-
I never got that far, too late at night. So where did that pdf with Bb7 come from then? Or was that the dom before the Ebm? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I give up, god knows what he was doing.
-
That was mine. I've been transcribing songs to teach myself, but since I couldn't find a chord chart for the song, I (wrongly) assumed it was a Bb blues. Learning... Originally Posted by ragman1
-
Oh, okay. Anyway, it's still about what it sounds like. In the end.
-
I insist I heard at least one :-) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
No worries, you're starting in a great spot. Grant's stuff is so good. Originally Posted by Bahnzo
As you listen more, you'll hear that device a lot on a minor blues form...it certainly wasn't new to grant, or jazz at all at the time of this record, but it sure does work and it sounds great.
-
Bahnzo -
Okay, sorry about that. I could tell you about the flu and the dentist this morning but I won't. Someone once described this forum as the blind leading the blind but I've always thought that was cynical and highly inaccurate. In this case, however, I plead guilty, I didn't check properly before posting. Thanks to Beaumont for alerting me.
So I've been over it. Bb minor blues. The intro progression is:
Bbm - % - % - %
Ebm - % - Bbm - %
F7 - Eb7 - Bbm - F7
After the intro progression they use something different, perhaps just Bbm.
Notice the Eb7 in bar 10. It's not Ebm. I think there might be other departures or chordal embellishments in there. Or it might be an illusion because of the bass runs and piano, I'm not sure.
Anyway, he's using the Bbm pentatonic a lot and Eb Dorian or harmonic minor - not just over the Ebm but in bar 4 before the Ebm. Whether it's the harmonic minor or Dorian with a D natural before the Eb, it's hard to say.
Often that chord in bar 4 becomes a dominant and they play either a diminished or altered run. Not in this case apparently although the piano touches on it here and there.
I can say this. If it was your intention to discover other scales than the blues pentatonic then you could try this lesson here on this site. That should keep you happy for a while :-)
Jazz Guitar Scales For The Minor Blues + C Minor Blues Solo
-
Grant used Phrygian Dominant a lot. It's a common bop sound on 7b9. Often you get a mix of the phrygian and the phrygian dominant. Originally Posted by Bahnzo
-
Which is (a mode of) the harmonic minor. It's the yellow bit of the pdf over Bb7, really Bbm in bar 4, so he's used it as the pre-empt of Ebm.Phrygian Dominant
Although it could also be dorian with a nat D. But if GG uses hm a lot maybe it is hm. Etc etc.
I hate analysing what others play unless it's obvious. How do we know what they were thinking?
-
Phrygian Dominant = Spanish Phrygian
-
I've definitely learned that since posting this. Searching and reading about harmonic minor and how there's seemingly different names for scales depending on who you listen to. I simply knew it as Spanish because that's what I initially learned it as. Is it more generally referred to as Dominant? Originally Posted by christianm77
As to the line I posted, I like to think of it as the Bb Phrygian Dominant, because (and correct me if I'm wrong) it's the same as Eb Harmonic minor, eh? So it "fits" both the Bb and the Eb chords.
-
Thanks for the analysis. I did some reading on the minor blues form and it's various subs. It looks like your charting of the intro follows that form. I plan to spend some time tonight to listen to the song a little more carefully and try to understand the solo sections. I would generally assume the choruses simply follow the intro, but you think they use something different? Originally Posted by ragman1
I've definitely been using the lessons on this site, I'm trying to go thru them in order as I also use other sources. I like transcribing stuff as I think it's really one of the best ways to learn, as this Grant Green has shown.
Reply With Quote
Critic my Jazz Improvisation Solo practice
Today, 02:43 AM in Improvisation