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I'm learning "When Lights Are Low" and I'm doing the original bridge which is a series of 2-5-1's. But they are fairly quick, with the 2-5 being a half bar each, and then the 1 being a whole bar. So I'm wondering how people would approach this, and I'm finding it a little quick for my current skills.
Just for reference, here's the bridge as I have it.
|Ebm7 Ab7|Db |Gbm7 B7|E |
|Am7 D7 |G |Gm7 C7 |Cm7 F7|
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04-08-2019 07:12 PM
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How to play over fast 251's?
Fast!
But, more seriously, treat each 2-5 either as just the ii or just the V. Or don't play many notes. Or do a sort of chromatic sequence thing. Or look at some transcriptions and see what they did.
But WLAL isn't fast at all, it's pretty slow! Or at least a very medium swing... which version are you going by?
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Like I mentioned, for me, it's quick (probably a better word) as I try to think thru that part of the song. My idea was to just play the V and resolve to the I, but I wasn't sure if there's some "rules of thumb" for how people might approach this sort of situation.
Originally Posted by ragman1
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The ii and the V are really just the I.
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No particular rule of thumb. Like I said before, you can either take each bar as all the ii, or all the V (before the M7s) or do some other thing with altered sounds like a b9. But the main thing is to find lines that ease neatly into each other. It would take a video to show you. Originally Posted by Bahnzo
Using the minor chord shapes as a guide:
Say you started with an Ebm at the 6th fret, you could get from there to a DbM7 at the 4th. The 3rd of Db is F so you could shift up one to F#m and then down to a EM7 (G#m and/or C#m).
Then, from G#m up to Am at the 5th, down to GM7. Then Gm and Cm at the 3rd... and so on.
Sounds like this. Mind you, this is all diatonic, no nice b9's or anything.
It depends how well you know the fingerboard, basically. Of course you could always noodle something in Db, then something in E, then something in G, then something in F, then something in Bb. It would work but it probably wouldn't sound much good.
EDIT!
By the way, are we talking about the same tune? I didn't know this tune and I've just found this lead sheet. The bridge looks very different despite that this one's in F.
Last edited by ragman1; 04-09-2019 at 12:32 AM.
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I simplify almost everything to V-I. Tension-release.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 04-10-2019 at 04:14 AM.
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How does it sound?
See, I'd be wary about treating each segment as a tonal centre and playing alt sounds to each M7. I think I'd do some b9 sounds and then an F alt at the end.
Something like that. But I also don't like to do it out of the tune's context. What the tune is affects it quite a lot. For me, anyway.
(edit)
And I'm not sure what tune we're talking about at the moment...!Last edited by ragman1; 04-09-2019 at 12:33 AM.
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I come from years of noodling blues/rock, so I've taught myself to think solely in terms of "This is a blues in A, so play A". So one of my hurdles is learning to not just play in one key, switch to another, etc. Like you said, it doesn't sound good. Originally Posted by ragman1
And certainly I don't have to tell you that's not the the original bridge, right?
I really love the Herb Ellis version of the tune, but I've known for years that it's not the one written by Benny Carter. If you listen to almost any singer, they use the original bridge as written by Carter. But Miles Davis is generally credited with re-writing the bridge and changing the standard for the song (Which is the one you you show). I think both are good in their own way.
Do a search on youtube for the song, there's a great version from Sarah Vaughan (with some awesome backing from Barney Kessel) which is the original form.
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V-I Originally Posted by Bahnzo
|Ab7|Db |B7|E |
|D7 |G |C7 |F7|
or
II-I
|Ebm7 |Db |Gbm7 |E |
|Am7 |G |Gm7 |Cm7|
or (my favourite) IV-I
|Gb^7 | Db^7 |A^7 | E^7
| C^7 | G^7 | Bb^7 | C^7
^ = maj7
Don't bother playing too much of I. Just a couple of chord tones will do. Major is jazz kryptonite.
Here's a vid about it, on another ii-V heavy song:
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Just get someone else to do it. Life's complicated enough already
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I listened to all those (and more) before I answered you! Originally Posted by Bahnzo
I come from years of noodling blues/rock, so I've taught myself to think solely in terms of "This is a blues in A, so play A". So one of my hurdles is learning to not just play in one key, switch to another, etc. Like you said, it doesn't sound good.
And certainly I don't have to tell you that's not the the original bridge, right?
I really love the Herb Ellis version of the tune, but I've known for years that it's not the one written by Benny Carter. If you listen to almost any singer, they use the original bridge as written by Carter. But Miles Davis is generally credited with re-writing the bridge and changing the standard for the song (Which is the one you you show). I think both are good in their own way.
Do a search on youtube for the song, there's a great version from Sarah Vaughan (with some awesome backing from Barney Kessel) which is the original form.
The answer's the same, though. Either minors or dominants, cut down the number of notes, make it fit the feel of the tune, etc etc.
As I said, it's a question of how well you know the fingerboard. If you start with something dead easy you can build on it. As Christian said, a couple of notes per chord. Then you'll get into the idea and perhaps do more.
But whatever, dive into it and just do something!
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Bump for any thead that says jazz is too fast. It is too fast! Slow down!
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Originally Posted by christianm77
What about taking that a step further and just playing IV iii for each?
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True. Originally Posted by tomems
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I feel like sometimes people get warped out over the "Play everything as ii" ... or V etc. At a basic level it's this: Take any II-V line you like, and write it out as numbers (scale degrees of the chord of the moment). But write the whole thing out as if ALL of the pitches are an extension of the II chord (or V if you like).
It's simply a way of organizing melodic material conceptionally at tempo. You're not pretending that one or the other doesn't exist or something. Not necessarily anyway. And you can play lines this way which actually address each chord in a pretty specific way as well. It's simply easier to conceptualize in-time.
Of course, it goes without saying that you can do all that without writing anything down as well.
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that's what I do. I think all dominant, but if i want ii i'll just make a big deal about the 4th degree Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Just done this. It's basic swing, not many melodic lines, and the bridge is simplified to ii-IM7 arpeggios. There's a touch of F7alt. It doesn't need to be complex.
But I suppose it could be!
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Whenever I try to write things out beforehand I find it sounds contrived and I can't play it naturally. It's all on the fly with me. Probably shows too :-)
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I don't know if anyone's up for it but I'd quite like to hear a version of that bridge where the solo's been reduced only to V - I's. Just to see what you do with it.
Won't hold my breath though
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I spent last night doing what you posted earlier, ii-IM7 arp's. I might try V-I tonight and see not only how those sound, but how a mix of both might sound. Originally Posted by ragman1
I don't know if anyone's up for it but I'd quite like to hear a version of that bridge where the solo's been reduced only to V - I's. Just to see what you do with it.
Won't hold my breath though
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If I could ask a question here. Are you meaning to just use the IV major of each ii-V? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Goody :-) Originally Posted by Bahnzo
I asked for a demo of just V-I's because, as far as the V's are concerned, I don't see what can be done with them unless they're considerably altered. Play the mixolydian? Then you're basically just using the major scale. So unless they become 7b9, 7alt, 7+, 7#9, etc, etc, I don't see what the point is.
But it's you who've asked for this info and, if the V's are going to be so altered... well, you can't do it. At least, that's how I've understood it.
But the ii's can very easily be made into very nice lines... but we won't bang on about that
NB: The M7's are very like minors so that idea could be very productive. I'd certainly support that.
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I'll answer for Christian here to save time. According to his diagram it's one every bar, so:
GbM7 - DbM7 - AM7 - EM7
CM7 - GM7 - BbM7 - CM7
That last CM7 gives a neat altered sound. Good trick :-)
But you might find it tricky to not make them sound disconnected, that's the only thing.
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In the book Introduction to Jazz Guitar Improvisation, the author has one work on arps over common chord situations which is a preparation for writing licks over common chord situations. You do this to develop vocabulary and you can use the licks verbatium or as launching points for coming up with variations.
ii-V-I is a common situation in the book and you work on both four beats each and two beats each. You start with consecutive eigth notes for both the arps and the licks. It was extremely useful for me, the book and the exercises.
For example, this is me doing some lick writing:
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This is what I came up with using a V-I approach.
And FWIW, this is what I did the night before with ii-I
WLAL ii - I by Bahnzo | Free Listening on SoundCloud
For the short ii-V's at the end I played the V for the first bar, then a melodic minor thing for the second.
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