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Can you name any tune that uses a V7 #11 resolving to I ?
For example G7 # 11 resolving to C maj
ThanksLast edited by rintincop; 09-27-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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09-27-2019 01:14 PM
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How can you tell it’s not a 7b5?
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Okay, can you please name a tune that goes either V7 b5 (natural 13, natural 9) or V7 #11 (natural 13, natural 9) to I ?
Last edited by rintincop; 09-27-2019 at 03:52 PM.
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Then no, not off the top of my head.
Originally Posted by rintincop
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Generally the resolution would be a half step down. G7#11 down to Gb major or minor, or even maj/min7
More common would be an (G) V alt dominant to a (C) I resolution .
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Thanks , I know that. I'm just checking if anybody can recall a standard that actually calls for it for a V7 (#11, nat 13, nat 9) to tonic I ? I can't think of a case, although I have heard great pianists do it.
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Maybe not written explicitly, but there's no good reason you can't incorporate the #11 into your own playing (bearing in mind the melody of course). V7 is about as open as it gets, and people mix altered/diminished/mixo language all the time. So even if you're playing #11, 13, 9 etc. it doesn't even necessarily mean you're thinking lydian dominant or have that chord written before you, you're just creating melodies with everything available to you. Use your own discretion
I guess my underlying thought is..why do you ask? Are you looking for justification or for a tune to practice it on?
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One of the things that adds up to us a polychord of a major II triad over a V7. In the key of C: Originally Posted by rintincop
G B C# E F A which might not be a pleasant voicing. Let us know what you find!
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Pulling at straws: Tune Up ? Nah, it’s just the melody.
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Which brings us to the question ‘what is a chord symbol?’ Originally Posted by rintincop
Well a lot of the times the chord extensions are given by the melody in those older tunes. I mean what are we talking about if not the melody? Most music before 1960 was based on melody over simple chords and any extensions fall out of that. (Often because jazzers started to hear and write harmonic appogiaturas into extensions - cf Stella)
And then there’s arrangements where the harmony is written to be more complex, but is this part of the turn per se?
OTOH composers increasingly melodicised chord progressions after the 1960s.... so the chords were written pretty much as performed rather than a melody harmonised and reharmonised post haste.
I can think of examples that have both the 13 and #11 in the melody on II7 but not on a V chord..... it would presumably resolve to the 9 on the I.
I can think of examples that have a 13 on a V chord - extremely common in standards, and tunes that have a b5 on V / particularly common in minor key bebop heads.
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Ipanema: Gm7 - Gb7b5 - FM7. Originally Posted by rintincop
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But that's a bII7#11 not V7#11? More analogous to altered as it relates to V? Originally Posted by ragman1
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Ha! I hadn't listened to it with any focus, I was more looking at the chords as written on the vid (as it's got F7#11 - FM7).
Trouble is he's not playing that at all. Actually he's playing:
F69 - x8778x
G9 - x1091010x
Gm9 - x1081010x
F#7#9 - x98910x
F69 - x8778x
F6 - x8776x
(F#9 - x9899x)
And, from the Gm, the bass goes G - E - F.
Make of it what you will! But you've got to admit it sounds pretty good.
(He changes it later. That's only the first few bars, I haven't done the whole thing).
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Well it’s a Gb7 chord with a C in the melody, so it’s open. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I tend to enjoy cadentially efficient sounds (ie more chromatic) for V-Is though, and I suspect most jazz players would. So G7#11 seems more likely.
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See aboveit’s a Gb7 chord with a C in the melody
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Cool. Yeah so that’s an A pedal in the top voice. V Bossa. So I suppose you could say a number of things scalically couldn’t you? But not altered. Originally Posted by ragman1
One cadence that is interesting is Insensatez
Cm6 G/B Bbmaj7
So, G/B has the #11 and 13.... but is it a sub for F7?
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I haven't done the whole thing. I'm sure there are b5 sounds in there too.
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There must be a Monk tune that does this .
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No, it's the V of Cm. The tune goes i-V, then i-V a tone down. Originally Posted by christianm77
Dm - % - A7 - %
Cm - % - G7 - %
Bb - % - Eb - %
Em7b5 - A7 - Dm - (Db7)
Chopin, innit.
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That’s how I would normally play it, but there’s often more than one way to look at a progression. Originally Posted by ragman1
Also I don’t like G7, I think Jobim has G/B, but either works.Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2019 at 03:22 AM.
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So one good way of getting a melodic minor sound is to use the V triad of the Mel minor.
So on Dm we use A
On D7 we use E (Am right)
On Bm7b5 we use A (Dm again)
And on B7alt we use G (Cm so we can both be right haha)
This is what I think of as a modern dominant. In that modern dominants often avoid one of the dominant guide tones (usually the third) for a less obvious, cadential sound. A lot of modern players seem to do this.
So with that in mind, G/B becomes a type of B7alt voicing
I doubt that’s what Jobim was thinking of, but it is a sound you can use. If it doesn’t sound cool enough, try adding an Eb to the G triad.
I mean, you do this anyway, right, if you play V of Cm, It’s just a theoretical reframe....
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Another way of looking at it is C Mel min has G7, F7 and B7 alt
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We. Don’t. Talk. About. Altered. scale. Enharmony. Originally Posted by djg
ever heard of a minor chord with a 6th in the bass?
But sure one of those would do the same trick. Although the tritone is not what you would want if you were going for a less cadential sound.
Bm7#5 would be a cooler choice. But I always hear that chord as Gadd9/B anyway.
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Don’t do that. Yucky. Originally Posted by djg
#bossasnob
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Christian, master of distraction!
The question was if we knew any tunes that went V7#11 to 1. Probably there are quite a few if we allow a 7#11 to be a 7b5.
There's a thing called Bemsha Swing that has it every few bars. But it's not much of a tune :-) Originally Posted by Pycroft
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