The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

[broturtel]

Hello there!

I just got this really great book.

I thought it'd be pretty cool to start a study group where we can go through a chapter a week, talk about it together, so forth and so on. I don't know if there's already a thread for this but I'm starting today! (18 June 2020) and starting on the Monday after next (28 June 2020) we can start a new chapter every Monday, so that Monday we'll move on to chapter 2. Of course this is completely self-paced so if you go ahead or fall behind, no worries!

I think it'd be a good idea if when you post a post on this thread, tag it with [JTB CH#] so that we can all reference where you are. Let's also try to keep gear talk to a minimum on this post of course since there is another section of the forum for that. It's okay to reference other books and information on this post so long as they have to do with the topics in this book! Sorry for the rules. I know it's not really a standard thing to include rules in a post, but I really want to focus on studying this book and the information provided in it!

Also, if something like this already exists for this book, I'll delete this post and move to that post.

EDIT: I was gonna do a study group, but I'm no longer going to do that. I'm just going to come back here and post notes when I see good information that I thinks translates well to jazz guitarists. It won't be beginner theory things, but just cool concepts I think would be cool to talk about with you guys. Also, please refrain from trying to talk me out of reading this book. hahaha. I've already begun, and so far I love it.

[christianm77]

I promise not to spam messages saying how much I hate the Levine theory book haha.

Well, I don’t HATE it. It is a fact of jazz education life.

As it’s such a standard text, maybe it would be for me good to revisit, go chapter to chapter and thoroughly examine and critique it where I feel necessary, and rather than being negative suggest other avenues to look into.

There’s also probs loads of good stuff I’ve forgotten about.

[christianm77]

Also forum contributor rintincop AFAIK helped write it; so I’m sure he’d have some interesting contributions.

[AlsoRan]

Hello. Before you invest your precious time into this project, you may want to prepare by googling "Jazz Guitar Forum Levine Theory Book"

There has been a lot of discussion, often heated at times, about the book and you may find that you agree with the arguments against it - or you can at least go in knowing what to expect and can tailor your studies.

[christianm77]

Well I reread some of it. Some I agree with but I got very triggered by chapter III haha.

[christianm77]

Levine puts it well in the intro. There is no definitive theory of jazz....

[broturtel]

Hello. Before you invest your precious time into this project, you may want to prepare by googling "Jazz Guitar Forum Levine Theory Book"

There has been a lot of discussion, often heated at times, about the book and you may find that you agree with the arguments against it - or you can at least go in knowing what to expect and can tailor your studies.

hey there. Yes I actually did a lot of research BEFORE I bought the book and I’ve skimmed through the book. I’m not a very whimsical person. If I’m doing it I wanna do it. lol. But thanks for the advice

[Reg]

yea I know and have gigged with Mark... He's a great musician... also with Herb Pomerory. Herb was great teacher.
Anyway... If you need any help, I'm from same background as Mark...just younger and much better looking, LOL
If you get it going I can answer questions etc... I also don't have all the typical hangups about this way or that as most teachers have.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think it's a great book.

It's written clearly. It has copious examples from master players that quickly illustrate the points. It covers a lot of relevant topics.

It strikes me as difficult to the point of being overwhelming to try to organize jazz into a book. He took a shot at it and did pretty well. That said, I haven't read any other books that tried to be as comprehensive -- maybe somebody else has done it better.

I doubt that it's the perfect book. I'll let other posters, more educated than I, comment on the imperfections.

I learned the basics of scales, modes and chord construction. I found the section on melodic minor applications to be playing-changing -- and there aren't many things you can read in 10 minutes that do that.

I can imagine other approaches. A chronological approach, detailing the evolution of jazz theory would be interesting. I can imagine a song based approach, perhaps taking a tune that has been recorded repeatedly since the dawn of time and detailing the ways in which the approaches have changed from one era to the next. Maybe an innovator based approach, explaining what people like Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Bill Evans etc did to advance the music. But, Levine's approach works too.

[broturtel]

yea I know and have gigged with Mark... He's a great musician... also with Herb Pomerory. Herb was great teacher.
Anyway... If you need any help, I'm from same background as Mark...just younger and much better looking, LOL
If you get it going I can answer questions etc... I also don't have all the typical hangups about this way or that as most teachers have.

Noted and I just may take you up on that! Thanks for the help!

- BT

[broturtel]

I think it's a great book.

It's written clearly. It has copious examples from master players that quickly illustrate the points. It covers a lot of relevant topics.

It strikes me as difficult to the point of being overwhelming to try to organize jazz into a book. He took a shot at it and did pretty well. That said, I haven't read any other books that tried to be as comprehensive -- maybe somebody else has done it better.

I doubt that it's the perfect book. I'll let other posters, more educated than I, comment on the imperfections.

I learned the basics of scales, modes and chord construction. I found the section on melodic minor applications to be playing-changing -- and there aren't many things you can read in 10 minutes that do that.

I can imagine other approaches. A chronological approach, detailing the evolution of jazz theory would be interesting. I can imagine a song based approach, perhaps taking a tune that has been recorded repeatedly since the dawn of time and detailing the ways in which the approaches have changed from one era to the next. Maybe an innovator based approach, explaining what people like Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Bill Evans etc did to advance the music. But, Levine's approach works too.

There's no perfect book! I've browsed through many books and resources, and I've even taken the time to learn a lot through other books. This is already a good read so far and what I've seen is quite excellent so I figured I'd give a good read through, apply the concepts, and keep it moving. Learn the theory, learn the rules, and then when you get on stage forget about all that and just wail!

[christianm77]

Pay close attention to what he says in the introduction. this is is the best advice in the book.

i actually recorded a critique of the first few chapters but it runs to about 45 minutes and I’m not sure who’d want to sit through that lol.

I think as a project it’s a crap idea to start off with.

Firstly, what is it for? What is the student meant to learn from it?

I have some very big problems with it, factually, historically and in terms of its but also the way it works as a learning material.

Thats not to say it is devoid of value, and I don’t want to sound like I’m somehow dissing Levine, it’s more that this book is far more limited than the naive student might think; it’s also very much of its time when jazz edu felt it had to have an overarching unified syllabus.

Don’t imagine you’ll be able to learn to play jazz from it. (TBF I doubt Levine would claim that.)

Also for a guy at pains to show he is relaxed, open and he can get very prescriptive at times with his do/don’ts. These are easy to debunk if you know the music. But people actually get a bit fucked up by them and start worrying about shit that doesn’t matter. That’s what I dislike about it most probably.

it should present itself as resources, nothing more. As a sourcebook it’s good.

i have a lot of student who have read this book and it takes time to deprogram them from this stuff. It’s bad teaching in my view.

It presents itself as definitive and that’s a problem, especially when Levine is apparently aware that this is a potential problem, but the prose and presentation is sometimes at odds with

I think the very act of writing a book like this shapes the way you present and formulate your ideas and the way it is received by the reader.

it is possible some may think this is a systematic, step by step way to understand and play jazz.

I could make a list of all the stuff I think is wrong or omitted from the book. But that’s not really the point.

[broturtel]

Pay close attention to what he says in the introduction. this is is the best advice in the book.

i actually recorded a critique of the first few chapters but it runs to about 45 minutes and I’m not sure who’d want to sit through that lol.

I think as a project it’s a crap idea to start off with.

Firstly, what is it for? What is the student meant to learn from it?

I have some very big problems with it, factually, historically and in terms of its but also the way it works as a learning material.

Thats not to say it is devoid of value, and I don’t want to sound like I’m somehow dissing Levine, it’s more that this book is far more limited than the naive student might think; it’s also very much of its time when jazz edu felt it had to have an overarching unified syllabus.

Don’t imagine you’ll be able to learn to play jazz from it. (TBF I doubt Levine would claim that.)

Also for a guy at pains to show he is relaxed, open and he can get very prescriptive at times with his do/don’ts. These are easy to debunk if you know the music. But people actually get a bit fucked up by them and start worrying about shit that doesn’t matter. That’s what I dislike about it most probably.

it should present itself as resources, nothing more. As a sourcebook it’s good.

i have a lot of student who have read this book and it takes time to deprogram them from this stuff. It’s bad teaching in my view.

It presents itself as definitive and that’s a problem, especially when Levine is apparently aware that this is a potential problem, but the prose and presentation is sometimes at odds with

I think the very act of writing a book like this shapes the way you present and formulate your ideas and the way it is received by the reader.

it is possible some may think this is a systematic, step by step way to understand and play jazz.

I could make a list of all the stuff I think is wrong or omitted from the book. But that’s not really the point.

I do not think that this or any other book is a systematic, step-by-step way to understand and play jazz.

[christianm77]

Dude. Read the above. I'm not taking ANYTHING as definitive. It's theory man. Not truth. Theory. That being said...I'm gonna read this book. But thanks for the advice. I'm not taking anything as systematic. I'm gonna learn some rules, learn some methods, and then I'm gonna forget about them and just play music. I'm gonna read this book not for you, but for me. I like it so far. And I'm going with it. But thanks for giving this spill...again. I appreciate it.

It’s not advice (although I think Levines advice in the intro is excellent, including the bit about learning piano), it’s my critical reading, problems I have with the book based on my experience of studying, playing and teaching the music. I could actually be a lot more specific but that would get long very quickly.

If you wanted my advice, I have to hear your playing for instance and know something about your aims as a player (not saying you do, but advice varies from person to person.)

[Reg]

hey broturtel...

Yea, it's a great book for pianist, I take it you've been through his Jazz Piano Book.... also pretty good. I'm also a pianist... not great but play well enough to read through big band charts etc on stage, just don't have the chops... anyway... your into book, good luck. Marks worked with many of the great jazz acts...he can cover, great tunes and arrangements... easy to work with etc...

I have a large library, even set of Groves, still adding all the time.... although I don't need marks Theory Book, I still have it... great single reference. Not everything, but will get one in the right direction. As you sound like you already know... part of playing and understanding jazz, or performing jazz is.... the expanding of basic theory and making choices.
If you feel like it... post some notes as your going through. I always dig different perspectives... and obviously have too much extra time.... still not taking gigs.

Should add... I'm a pro guitarist, I can cover etc... have composed and arranged for 40+ years.

[broturtel]

hey broturtel...

Yea, it's a great book for pianist, I take it you've been through his Jazz Piano Book.... also pretty good. I'm also a pianist... not great but play well enough to read through big band charts etc on stage, just don't have the chops... anyway... your into book, good luck. Marks worked with many of the great jazz acts...he can cover, great tunes and arrangements... easy to work with etc...

I have a large library, even set of Groves, still adding all the time.... although I don't need marks Theory Book, I still have it... great single reference. Not everything, but will get one in the right direction. As you sound like you already know... part of playing and understanding jazz, or performing jazz is.... the expanding of basic theory and making choices.
If you feel like it... post some notes as your going through. I always dig different perspectives... and obviously have too much extra time.... still not taking gigs.

Should add... I'm a pro guitarist, I can cover etc... have composed and arranged for 40+ years.

yeah, I noticed this was a piano book. Haha. I’ll definitely post some notes as I go along, thanks!

[rintincop]

Mark Levine also has published two other books:

"Jazz Piano Masterclass with Mark Levine - The Drop 2 Book"
( It covers piano block chords (C6 dim scale harmony and C-6 dim scale harmony) and Mark's suggested tweaks, it's like what Barry Harris teaches)

"HOW TO VOICE STANDARDS AT THE PIANO: THE MENU"
(Mark takes the tune "Alice In Wonderland" and shows how he uses his favorite piano voicings, taken form his suggested "menu" of voicings, the choices all depend on what note is in the melody)

[christianm77]

yeah, I noticed this was a piano book. Haha. I’ll definitely post some notes as I go along, thanks!

Definitely try and get access to a keyboard if you can.

There's stuff that I think is obvious on the piano that isn't on the guitar. The way the chord scales relate and so on is so much clearer. And you can put that on the guitar.

[rintincop]

A theory professor's fussy review of The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine:
MTO 6.1: Rawlins, Review of Levine

• fussy: showing excessive or anxious concern about detail, hard to please

[christianm77]

"Jazz Piano Masterclass with Mark Levine - The Drop 2 Book"
( It covers piano block chords (C6 dim scale harmony and C-6 dim scale harmony) and Mark's suggested tweaks, it's like what Barry Harris teaches)

Reading chapter II (I think) about using a dominant chord on VI, not a minor, on a 1 6 2 5 (and later saying it's lazy not too...) and thinking Barry be like:


Tweaks, eh?

[christianm77]

A theory professor's critical review of The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine:
MTO 6.1: Rawlins, Review of Levine

This I think is going to be broadly speaking the critique I would make from the first few points.

EDIT: yeah this covers pretty much all of my points that weren't just nitpicking. Really good to have it there, thanks for the link.

[christianm77]

Here's another thing I'd like to see in more jazz books for learners - autobiography, who the author studied and played with, important lessons they learned and so on.

One book that has this is a Jazz Life by John Klopotowski, possibly one of my favourite jazz books, that will teach you more about learning jazz than a dozen chord scale manuals.

I'm sure Levine could write a fantastic book like that and I would read it. Combine it with teaching.

The drive to produce some quantitative dry repository of jazz information devoid of context to environment and history is all too common in jazz education. In essence, this book actually represents a political effort that was in place since the 70s, not for altogether bad reasons. One was to establish jazz as having its own theory, like classical music and separate from it, that could be taught in schools and gain respect as being a legitimate academic syllabus. There's a lot of this attitude implicit in the book.

That's the only reason I can think why Levine seems to have a phobia of things like triads, chord inversions and functional harmony.

Needless to say the book is also chiefly concerned with pitch choices, not rhythm or pitch choices and rhythms interrelate. It's pretty much useless for analysing actual jazz material. You'll end up like this poor confused bastard:



It's the blues, mate. Seriously. He's playing blues stuff in the key.

[rintincop]

It strikes me that Rawlins' thinking versus Levine's thinking is similar to conservatism (tradition, familiar, unambiguous, hierarchy, etc) versus liberalism (more abstract, less fussy about individual note resolution, less concerned with harmonic function, etc).

By the way, Rawlins is a sax player who has written his own rather pedantic jazz theory book.

[rintincop]

"That's the only reason I can think why Levine seems to have a phobia of things like triads, chord inversions and functional harmony."
That is not true. How do you can make such an assumption? You seem rather obsessed with discrediting Mark Levine.

[rintincop]

Christian, you are using strawman arguments, you know that Lady Be Good example was not published by Mark Levine.