F7-Family chords concept

[Samdols]

Hi everyone,

I hope this will give you some concept of family chords.
F7, Am7b5, Cm7, EbMaj7 (V7, Vii7b5, iim7, IVMaj7)

[Donplaysguitar]

Nice playing Samdols.

How are you defining a "chord family", and are you saying that the four chords that you've listed represent 1,2, 4 or other distinct families?


Thanks.

[jameslovestal]

Nice playing Samdols.

How are you defining a "chord family", and are you saying that the four chords that you've listed represent 1,2, 4 or other distinct families?


Thanks.

The chords are in the key of Bb, and noted as such; E.g. F7 is the V7 (5th dom7) in the key of Bb, Cm7 is the 2 minor 7th, etc...

[Michael Neverisky]

Sheryl Bailey uses these exact changes to demo her Microcosmic Bebop line concept.

[Donplaysguitar]

Dick Grove defined nine (9) "Chord Families", two (2) of which apply to those 4 chords.

Grove described A CHORD FAMILY as being made up of chords (including their plural substitutes) that FUNCTION THE SAME WAY IN A MAJOR OR MINOR KEY AREA. As long as these chords function the same way, they are interchangeable in their application. Grove defined nine chord families, their plural substitutes, available tensions and altered tensions, and optional chord scales.

The two chord families here are:
The V7 Chord Family in Major
The IImi7 Chord Family in Major

The Viimi7b5 is a plural substitute for V7 and is in the V7 family
The IVMaj7 is a plural substitute for IImi7 and is in the IImi7 family

[christianm77]

Hi everyone,

I hope this will give you some concept of family chords.
F7, Am7b5, Cm7, EbMaj7 (V7, Vii7b5, iim7, IVMaj7)

Nice lines!

Basically it’s any chords diatonic to the dominant scale, right? Any of these can be used in dominant and they all sound great.

That’s how Barry Harris teaches it anyway.

Don't sleep on triads. The Eb and Cm triads are extremely useful in particular over F7 and Cm7 F7

Also Bb sounds great as well lol. That’s my preferred choice for a Cm11 chord now....

I don’t think there’s much standardisation of the term ‘family’ in jazz. Barry uses family of dominants to talk about F7 Ab7 B7 D7

Sheryl Bailey’s family of four is F7 Am7b5 Cm7 Ebmaj7, building off the chord tones of F7

This four chord structure is probably the most useful thing I’ve ever learned in jazz....

[Michael Neverisky]

.. This four chord structure is probably the most useful thing I’ve ever learned in jazz....

Interesting to read that! I've been walking the jazz path only a couple of years and it's one of the most profound and practical ideas I've encountered along the way as well. Not meaning to discount the dozens of other insights to be had from Barry Harris.

Since we're taking about families, and in Barry's way of thinking, "playing with your family", the "parental forms" of Pat Martino come to mind. Pat is organizing the sonic world using the geometry of the guitar fretboard. Prior to Barry, I used to think of related dominants as being derived from the diminished parent a half step up. Kind of the long way around!

[christianm77]

I

Interesting to read that! I've been walking the jazz path only a couple of years and it's one of the most profound and practical ideas I've encountered along the way as well. Not meaning to discount the dozens of other insights to be had from Barry Harris.

Since we're taking about families, and in Barry's way of thinking, "playing with your family", the "parental forms" of Pat Martino come to mind. Pat is organizing the sonic world using the geometry of the guitar fretboard. Prior to Barry, I used to think of related dominants as being derived from the diminished parent a half step up. Kind of the long way around!

i actually meant the Sheryl Bailey thing, but the diminished symmetry thing is also super useful.

[Donplaysguitar]

I
i actually meant the Sheryl Bailey thing, but the diminished symmetry thing is also super useful.

Cool, where does she describe these? (i.e. what course or book)

Thx.

[Durban]

Cool, where does she describe these? (i.e. what course or book)

Thx.

Google Sheryl Bailey Microcosmic Bebop and there are some YT vids,

Without myself going into detail here,
Barry Harris Sherly and others are basically all talking about similar things The family of Four etc etc it all relates to Dominants and the subs,

It can be confusing, and suggest think what can i play over this, eg F7, oh that's BbMaj7 or Cm7 or EbMaj7.

then convert ** F7b9 = Ab7b9 = B7b9 = D7b9 type thinking boiling this down to barebones, what can i play over this? the light goes off you realise oh
Cm7 = F7. ive stated now each one of ** is Diminished chord a 1/2 step up ie F7b9 is F# dim etc etc ive already said too much

Hal Galpher uses a system of Equivalents there the chords are subs for every type not just dominants, basically taking it out there, and using his own terminology
try not to get bogged down in the names, start with with the family of Four concept ignore the Micro Cosmic BS, that's just Sheryl's way of describing, Barry Harris is a bit more tricky.

[Christian Miller]

With Barry Harris it’s more scale based; any chord from the Dominant scale will work, but he makes special mention of the major triad on b7 and important minor, V. Certainly if you use the added note rules for dominant scales you end up building triads, arpeggios and chords off the chord tones of the dominant chord a LOT.

Barry actually seems a lot more concerned with what he calls arpeggios - triads doubled at the octave - than seventh chord arpeggios. He certainly talks about them a lot in class.

But the Sheryl Bailey stuff also falls out of it. I think the Berklee teachers tend to start with seventh chords because they think it’s jazzier or something. TBF Wes played a lot of this stuff. But triads can be super useful for constructing longer lines with ‘bebop scales’ and communicate harmonic info very clearly.

I think substitution formulae can be easier for guitarists to get their heads around at first. We are chord people….

[wolflen]

during my study of the diminished scale..the symmetric harmony of chords..major..minor..dominant..diminished and augmented became a revelation as it presented
melodic and harmonic freedom in composition and improvisation ..

to some the "use" of the chromatic scale is just a referenced point..and same can be said of any scale..and here is where the term "mode" becomes a source of confusion for many..
the realization that there is life outside of the major and minor scales

my discovery that Major and minor triads, dominant and altered dominant chords exist in symmetric intervals all within the diminished scale and are "hiding in plain sight"

and when used as a way to also incorporate altered minor scales and their chords..you have an abundant amount of material for compositional and improvisation exploriation

listening with new ears to Coltrane and many..contemporary players .. the feel of no tonal center begins to sound comfortable to the ear and with it
the demand for attention as surprise directions and sudden turns becomes fun..like a roller coaster ride with out the tracks

for me the "four chords" outlook..becomes just one chord in a choice of harmonic/melodic directions

[rpjazzguitar]

Warren Nunes said there are two types of chords, Type I and Type II.

Type I

Cmaj7 Em7 Gmaj7 Am7

Type II

Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5.

Within a type, the chords are interchangeable.

If there were exceptions for specific usages, I don't remember him mentioning it. He might have.

Mark Levine teaches that all chords from a melmin scale are interchangeable. So, Cminmaj7 is the same chord as Dsusb9 Ebmaj7#5 etc.

Then, if you listen to certain players you will hear things like C G7 C where the chart says C.

That's enough years of study for one post.

[Christian Miller]

Warren Nunes said there are two types of chords, Type I and Type II.

Type I

Cmaj7 Em7 Gmaj7#11 Am7

Type II

Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5.

Within a type, the chords are interchangeable.

If there were exceptions for specific usages, I don't remember him mentioning it. He might have.

Mark Levine teaches that all chords from a melmin scale are interchangeable. So, Cminmaj7 is the same chord as Dsusb9 Ebmaj7#5 etc.

Then, if you listen to certain players you will hear things like C G7 C where the chart says C.

That's enough years of study for one post.

Notice how all the chords in Type II include F the 'avoid note' of the C major key, and the Type I chords don't. :-)

[pingu]

tel:1139613[/URL]"]1139613[/URL]]Notice how all the chords in Type II include F the 'avoid note' of the C major key, and the Type I chords don't. :-)

yes .... the F is the salient point

for me type I chords are home
type II chords are away

[MarkRhodes]

Notice how all the chords in Type II include F the 'avoid note' of the C major key, and the Type I chords don't. :-)

Almost. Am7 doesn't contain an F.

In C it's the 6th and some people who teach the 'two types of chords' (or Dominant / Tonic) approach say the vi chord can work in either group provided you know what you're doing. (They see the vi as more of a neutral chord, one that gets its character from its surroundings.)

[pingu]

1139629[/URL]]Almost. Am7 doesn't contain an F.

thats because it’s a Type I chord

[rpjazzguitar]

thats because it’s a Type I chord

Warren was quite clear about Am7. He said it was both Type I and Type II. None of the Type I's contain an F. All but one (Am7) of the Type II's contain an F.

He would have a student play 3625's and then do all his Type I and Type II subs at breakneck tempi. He would then name what he did, as in, "I played 6 against 3, 4 against 6 etc. And, when I checked my cassette tape, he was always exactly right.

Since he didn't get it directly from the Almighty, there can be alternative views. But, he used it and he always sounded great.

Am7 makes the Type I a C6.

Am7 makes the Type II a G13 (with the 11th). You'd think Warren might say something about not leaning too hard on the 11th, but I don't recall him ever mentioning it.

But, to go just a bit further ...

Warren didn't talk about stacked fourth voicings. Like x3334x. But they're interesting because they seem to work, to a degree, as both tonic and dominant. At least, if you don't lean on the wrong one for too long. I found that liberating when someone first pointed it out to me. Pick a stack and move it up through the major scale, you get three grips. Then you use them interchangeably any time you're playing squarely in a major key. Ex: 8 beats of Cmaj7. You play your stacks of 4ths in any order that creates a little countermelody with the highest note.

[Tal_175]

I get Gmaj7 over Cmaj7, it's the lydian sound. But I don't get Gmaj7#11 over Cmaj7. Playing a b9 over the tonic? It may sound interesting as a funky ending chord maybe (like playing DbMaj7 when Cmaj7 is expected, but in that case DbMaj7 still has C in it), but aside from that, it looks random. Of course you can treat it as a passing sound and resolve, but then everything works if you do that.

[rpjazzguitar]

I get Gmaj7 over Cmaj7, it's the lydian sound. But I don't get Gmaj7#11 over Cmaj7. Playing a b9 over the tonic? It may sound interesting as a funky ending chord maybe (like playing DbMaj7 when Cmaj7 is expected, but in that case DbMaj7 still has C in it), but aside from that, it looks random. Of course you can treat it as a passing sound and resolve, but then everything works if you do that.

Good point. I think I remembered that wrong.

Maybe the #11 I was recalling is the F# in the Gmaj7. That is, against the C root.

I changed it in the earlier post.

[Tal_175]

I apply Sheryl Bailey's microcosmic bebop line idea to major as well. Microcosmic major bebop line: Cmaj7-EMin7-AMin7 connected with C major bebop scale over any of the three chords.

The two microcosmic lines together form the intergalactic bebop hyperspace.


Notes;
o I know Sheryl Bailey's microcosmic dominant doesn't include the dominant chord itself. So, for F7 we get: Amin7b5, CMin7, EbMaj7 with F bebop scale (no F7). But I add F7 to that too. I know F7 on F7 is boring but don't forget we play these lines over any of the four chords, not just F7. Hence I also add the Cmaj7 to the major microcosmic bebop line.

o I put half notes as I please. The number and location of the half notes are products of your own experimentations with building lines and what you like.

o Micocosmic bebop line is not a line but a lick manufacturing plant.

[pingu]

1139642[/URL]]Warren was quite clear about Am7. He said it was both Type I and Type II. None of the Type I's contain an F. All but one (Am7) of the Type II's contain an F

cool ....
i don’t hear it like that myself

eg
in the progression
|C. Am|Dm. G7|

i hear that a a bar of type I then a bar of type II

don’t most of us hear it like that ?

[Tal_175]

cool ....
i don’t hear it like that myself

eg
in the progression
|C. Am|Dm. G7|

i hear that a a bar of type I then a bar of type II

don’t most of us hear it like that ?

I agree with this for the most part. The way to bring out Amin as type II is to think of it as related to FMaj7 which is F + Amin triad. Amin7 is A minor triad + G (the dominant note).
This is more natural if Fmaj7 over G7 is part of your vocabulary. Without the Fmaj7 connection, it can be hard to hear/play Amin as subdominant.

[pingu]

I agree with this for the most part. The way to bring out Amin as type II is to think of it as related to FMaj7 which is F + Amin triad. Amin7 is A minor triad + G (the dominant note).
This is more natural if Fmaj7 over G7 is part of your vocabulary. Without the Fmaj7 connection, it can be hard to hear/play Amin as subdominant.

thats interesting

yes i do play F/G and Fmaj7/G as subs for
G7 , i like that sound
(but i don’t sub Amin for the F , i still dont
hear that)

i still hear the F note as the important
sign that we are ‘away’ or in type II land

a side point ....
an Amin with a sharpened 5 (ie F) on
it would work as a type II to me

but hey ,we all hear differently
it’s all good

[Christian Miller]

Almost. Am7 doesn't contain an F.

In C it's the 6th and some people who teach the 'two types of chords' (or Dominant / Tonic) approach say the vi chord can work in either group provided you know what you're doing. (They see the vi as more of a neutral chord, one that gets its character from its surroundings.)

ah yeah, Am7 kind of belongs to both categories. But then so does Cmaj7 and Em7….they are all subsections of the ladder of thirds G7, or as Barry would have it part of the G7 scale.

Anyway any chord with the F in has an unresolved quality over a C chord, which is not to say it’s a bad sound… just unresolved. See George Russell.